One Thing That I Think Tolkien Did Wrong and Jackson Did Right

[Mumriken]

Looking at your drawing again, they would probably reach longer if they used one of these.

But still as Galadriel's drawing and my simulation pointed out. The catapult at the back wouldn't reach the furthest into the lines. The height isn't such a big advantage except if the stones were thrown away very HORIZONTALLY and which much greater force. (Like a bullet)

But these are thrown high up in the air and therefore doesn't reach that far. (See simulation for more detail) Also the movie itself confirms the simulation and the drawing so...game over buddy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAW2LxJRLqM

[Boromir88]

I fail to see how the movies got this one right when movies are notorious for hyping up the large battle sequences and getting physics and reality wrong (but that's also part of the appeal to movies). And your other evidence is a faulty drawing of catapult trajectories.

And on another note:

Originally Posted by TheAzn

As you have already known, 40,000 Mordorians is a very conservative number; heck even 80,000 is still considered to be a moderately conservative number. With this in mind, the Mordorians/Morgulians/Haradrims/etc. would have to be far closer to Minas Tirith than 7 miles.

Well, 40,000 is the the low ball estimate, but 80,000 is at the very high end. The estimate for the Pelennor Fields is really 40-65 thousand. Sauron's force coming out of the Black Gate was 70,000 and I haven't seen a case to show his combined Pelennor Fields force would be greater. The movies 250,000 or whatever it was was again, the film business liking the large, epic battles.

[Galadriel55]

There is also this point which was mentioned before but not really elaborated on: the Mordor forces were firing heads over the walls of the first couple levels, and some small loads that would explode into fire. Gondorians were most likely firing large blocks such as you see in the movie. A catapult shoots lighter loads much farther than heavier loads. Gondor did not, for a fact, have anything that would equal to Mordor's explosive loads, and what's the point of firing heads at the orcs?

As for the preparation Denethor would have done, remember that Minas Tirith is unassailable. You can't break the walls with catapults. The Gondorians laughed at Sauron's catapults, because they would not do much harm to the walls. Denethor does not need to prepare a defence for a catapult attack, he has one already.

ETA: and yes, as Mumriken said, height could give advantage to, for example, archers, who shoot on a much flatter parabola. But not so much catapults.

[TheAzn]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Looking at your drawing again, they would probably reach longer if they used one of these.

But still as Galadriel's drawing and my simulation pointed out. The catapult at the back wouldn't reach the furthest into the lines. The height isn't such a big advantage except if the stones were thrown away very HORIZONTALLY and which much greater force. (Like a bullet)

But these are thrown high up in the air and therefore doesn't reach that far. (See simulation for more detail) Also the movie itself confirms the simulation and the drawing so...game over buddy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAW2LxJRLqM

Although I did admit that Mr. Peter Jackson made more sense than Professor Tolkien in this particular scenario, that does not mean that I agree with Mr. Jackson with everything, even in the scene where I agree with him the most. So no, it is not game over yet, good sir.

[TheAzn]

Hey Boromir88, Galadriel55, and Mumriken, I would like to kindly make a request on what I have already implied.

Can you guys please wait until I have adequately respond to those before you before you guys post anything else? Most of your points are pretty much the same, and I my explanations to the other posters could have refuted your arguments beforehand. I think that it would be best to makes my arguments very clear and honest by responding to each and every one of you. However, when you guys keep on adding new posts when I am not even finished, this "duty" becomes quite hard to do.

However, I think that it is also wrong to make you guys wait and I certainly do not have the right to tell you guys to do anything. Since I will be gone for half a day, I will make my revised arguments right now on this very post. I think this post will refute most of the arguments, and you guys can respond to it. I might expand on the arguments later on.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Gondor Can Use Small Projectiles Too!

Denethor and the Gondorians do not need large and heavy projectiles to destroy the engines of the Mordorians.

A stone was hurled (by hand?) from Barad-dur, and it struck an interesting person. That person was no other than Anarion. Being a of royalty he most likely had a very strong armor, and on his head he wore the "Crown" of Minas Arnor, which is most likely a very strong helmet. The (hand size?) stone broke through the helmet and killed the tough man Anarion instantly. Of course, Barad-dur is much taller than Minas Tirith, being at 5000 feet at the top. However, the stone need not be cast down at that height. Still, I will admit that the case is vague.

But thankfully for me, there is a very clear case, and that would be at a place called Isengard. At the Orthanc, Grima Wormtongue became so desperate that he threw the Palantiri at the people down below. Grima Wormtongue is not retarded; though Palantiri might miss, if the stone were to hit anybody that person would die instantly, even the tough Gandalf. You can test this yourself if you don't believe me ( I do not recommend it). The height of the Orthanc is 500 ft AT MOST. Grima Wormtongue probably threw the Palantiri at a much lower level, probably at 100 to 300 ft.

What is interesting is that, strong or weak from demoralization, Grima uses merely his human strength to throw the stone. This means that the stone was not very heavy. Yet, Professor Tolkien rightly implied that such stone, from height, can cause huge damages.
With this in mind, let's talk about Minas Tirith. Like the Mordorians, the Gondorians can also use light projectiles to gain range. At the end of the pathway, the projectile increases in lethality thanks to the acceleration caused by gravity. To clarify: a projectile fired from the bottom wall has about 100 ft of vertical acceleration; a projectile fired from the Second Wall has 200 ft of vertical acceleration; and a projectile fired near the frontline from the "bow of the ship" has about 700 feet of vertical accleration!!!!

As people know, a mere crack in a cannon can make it useless, and requires a relatively long time to fix. If the Mordorian artilleries have just any of their essential parts destroyed, then those artilleries cannot be fired for a while. This is a mighty advantage for the Gondorians.

It is true that Tolkien did not explicitly mention any aritilleries on the jutted rock. However, having artillieries there is the only option that made sense, especially when we are talking about artillieries that are just larger than 2 people.

Examples of portable artilleries built by normal people:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT1Q09BsMBo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsY7a...eature=related

[Galadriel55]

Once the Mordor artilleries have fired their explosive loads, quickly followed by the human heads, they've done their job and it doesn't matter who or what hits them. They can go back to Mordor for all the difference it makes.

And once again, because you still refuse to listen even after all those times that all those people told you so, Gondor's catapults could not reach the Mordorian ones!!! Could not. That's that. You say yourself that Gondorians aren't stupid, that they too can use lighter loads, but the situation for whatever reason was such that whatever they did did not help them in time. And that's that. Period. What's your point here?

As for the palantir, it can kill one person when falling from a height. Big deal, when you have many thousand orcs running at you.

[Boromir88]

Sorry, TheAzn, I'm not sure I'm following your recent post. I mean, unless you can please explain the phsyics necessary for how a greater height = greater horizontal distance of the trajectory's endpoint?

I don't see why the Mordor lines could not have been parked out of range, while their own catapults were lobbing in lighter projectiles.

Originally Posted by G55

As for the palantir, it can kill one person when falling from a height. Big deal, when you have many thousand orcs running at you.

The Orthanc stone wasn't, but some of the palantiri were quite large...we're talking about multiple people being necessary to transport them. In fact...I think a palantir-wrecking ball would be quite effective and more useful than their spying advantage.

[Bêthberry]

Welcome to the Downs, TheAzn.

Your thread is obviously intriguing enough that many have replied and you should be quite pleased with that, even if it is hard to catch up.

I have to say, though, that your thread title certainly seems to wave a red flag at many of us and for that reason I shall be on my best behaviour and not reply.

You've made quite a successful entrance.

[Rumil]

As TheAzn says,

an equally powerful stone thrower in an elevated position could shoot further than one at ground level. However, this increase in range can never be more than half the range on the flat, assuming everything is shot at the most efficient 45 degree angle.

Reconstructed medieval designs for trebuchets can shoot a heavy projectile out to about 300 metres, while with modern materials and improvements trebuchets have been designed that can throw a pumpkin 620 metres.

The question remains as to why Sauron's catapults outranged Denethor's. Of course nobody knows the answer, but a possibilities suggests themselves. First of all the obvious conclusion is that Sauron's catapults were just more powerful, but why could't or didn't Minas Tirith make similarly powerful machines?

First, Sauron was a Maia originally of Aule! If anyone knew how to build a war machine, it was Sauron. Maybe Gondor's machines were just not as technically advanced?

Secondly, the medieval trebuchets were very big, typically they were transported in bits to a siege and constructed on site. It may just be that there wasn't sufficient space on Minas Tirith's ramparts and towers to build a huge enough example to outrange Sauron's.

Thirdly, the Gondorians seem to have considered the main use of catapults as battering down walls and were confident that their walls were un-batterable. So it might have made sense to them to build more smaller 'antipersonnel' catapults to take a toll of any force attempting to scale the walls or use siege towers etc. This of course leaves them open to counter-battery fire. But remember they didn't have Sauron's enormous resources, so may have had to settle for a less than ideal artillery arm.

[TheAzn]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Welcome to the Downs, TheAzn.

Your thread is obviously intriguing enough that many have replied and you should be quite pleased with that, even if it is hard to catch up.

I have to say, though, that your thread title certainly seems to wave a red flag at many of us and for that reason I shall be on my best behaviour and not reply.

You've made quite a successful entrance.

Hey Bethberry. Thank you for your warm welcoming. I apologize for my short reply.

[TheAzn]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Sorry, TheAzn, I'm not sure I'm following your recent post.

Hey Boromir88. I do not think that my new argument should be hard to understand. To gain clarity, please read the posts titled:
My Grand Refutation to the General Counter-Arguments Made Against Me / My Grand Refutation to the General Counter-Arguments Made Against Me(Cont'd) / My Grand Refutation to the General Counter-Arguments Made Against Me (FINISH)

[TheAzn]

Galadriel55, most of your arguments have been refuted already. To see what I mean, read the posts titled:
My Grand Refutation to the General Counter-Arguments Made Against Me / My Grand Refutation to the General Counter-Arguments Made Against Me(Cont'd) / My Grand Refutation to the General Counter-Arguments Made Against Me (FINISH)
Most of my replies on this post will be a reiteration of things that I have either explicitly stated or implied.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Once the Mordor artilleries have fired their explosive loads, quickly followed by the human heads, they've done their job and it doesn't matter who or what hits them. They can go back to Mordor for all the difference it makes.

Every arms of the Gondorians were already in the "ready" state before the siege. If the Gondorians have artilleries, then those could also be used at any moment. The Mordorians, as you know, fired their projectiles in volleys, and the first volley might indeed have surprised the Gondorians. However, the Gondorians should soon fire back before the Mordorians finished firing all of their "special" supply.
Besides artillery, there were also other highly dangerous tools (and creatures) on the Mordorian side, and these are the Oliphaunts, the armored trolls and the siege towers. Being large and heavily protected, all of them are best left for the artillerymen to kill and destroy..

And once again, because you still refuse to listen even after all those times that all those people told you so, Gondor's catapults could not reach the Mordorian ones!!! Could not. That's that.

I am seriously beginning doubt your maturity, Galadriel55. Why are you reaching such hasty conclusions based mostly on the number of people who agree with you? Just because I disagree with the majority here, that does not necessarily mean that I am being stubborn and is purposely shutting out my ears. In fact, I have been doing the complete opposite all along by providing the most evidence and responding to almost every counter-arguments made against me.

I thought that this is a civilized forum that deals mostly with evidence and reason.
The majority of the people against me may repeat the same things over and over, but that does not make their arguments true, especially when they have not provided much evidence.

but the situation for whatever reason was such that whatever they did did not help them in time.

And you would see that my main point, Galadriel55, is that these "situations" are actually plot holes. The Gondorians are not perfect, but they are not below "sub-human" intelligence either.

As for the palantir, it can kill one person when falling from a height. Big deal, when you have many thousand orcs running at you.

The palantir is used only as an example. Any type of stones that weighs around the same as the Palantir of the Orthanc can be used to kill. As for the problem of the thousand orcs, certain stones can break apart to effectively become shrapnels. The great Peter Jackson is wrong when he decides to crush those poor orcs with boulders - small stones are the more likely used projectiles. But he is more correct than Tolkien in the fundamentals; although archery are more effective at killing masses of soldiers, artilleries can also help out in this role, just not by crushing.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by TheAzn

I am seriously beginning doubt your maturity, Galadriel55. Why are you reaching such hasty conclusions based mostly on the number of people who agree with you?

Actually, I'm reaching such hasty and immature conclusions based on Tolkien's words. Whatever weapons the Gondorians had, they did not reach Mordor's lines. Whether they had catapults at all or no, Gondorian warriors could not do any damage to the Mordor army. They stayed out of range. That's that and you can't deny it, however hasty and immature knowing the book sounds to you.

Originally Posted by TheAzn

I thought that this is a civilized forum that deals mostly with evidence and reason.
The majority of the people against me may repeat the same things over and over, but that does not make their arguments true, especially when they have not provided much evidence.

Perhaps we just stand on such different grounds that we will never reach a conclusion that satisfies us both, since for the past while I was thinking to myself that you are repeating the same invalid arguments over and over again. But if it's true the other way around as well, well, I will accept that.

Agree to disagree?

Originally Posted by TheAzn

And you would see that my main point, Galadriel55, is that these "situations" are actually plot holes. The Gondorians are not perfect, but they are not below "sub-human" intelligence either.

How is not having a catapult around make a plot hole? For whatever reason, unknown to us, a reason that we don't need to know, Gondor's artillery, if it existed, did not reach Mordor's lines. Maybe catapults were just invented - by the Mordorian side. Maybe a fire happened in Minas Tirith a couple days before the war and burned down their own artillery. Who knows?

Why does it matter so much to you to prove that Tolkien left a plot hole? And so what if he did?


So agree to disagree?