One Thing That I Think Tolkien Did Wrong and Jackson Did Right

[TheAzn]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Well, first observation is that Tolkien says "As soon as the great catapults were set {ie, behind the fire pits} they began to throw missiles ... some burst into flame .... another hail more horrible {ie, the heads}"

They didn't "advance" to shoot, and so come into range of the city's catapults.

Later "in the middle night the assault was loosed... on they came reckless of their loss as they approached".

So, when they did finally advance, they did come within range of catapult and bow and did take heavy loss.

Which all seems to make sense as Tolkien wrote it.

Hey Puddlglum. The problem with this argument is that it creates more problems. If the Mordorians can reach the inside of the White City from the trenches, then the Gondorians - contrary to Professor Tolkien's description- should have had no problem tearing down the the workings of the trenches from the beginning. No matter how bad the Gondorian artilleries were, the Mordorians should not have outranged the Gondorians due to the sheer height advantage of the Gondorians.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by TheAzn

Hey Puddlglum. The problem with this argument is that it creates more problems. If the Mordorians can reach the inside of the White City from the trenches, then the Gondorians - contrary to Professor Tolkien's description- should have had no problem tearing down the the workings of the trenches from the beginning. No matter how bad the Gondorian artilleries were, the Mordorians should not have outranged the Gondorians due to the sheer height advantage of the Gondorians.

I'm not sure the math works out quite like your picture suggests. In an optimal trajectory the angle of the projectile will be at about 45 degrees so an elevation of 700 feet (even assuming the Citadel wall was manned by catapults - which Tolkien never wrote) would give an extra 700 foot range (plus or minus) - that's less that 2/10 of a mile. All Sauron has to do is move his catapults back a couple of city blocks.

And note that the 1000 foot elevation is only from the top of the White Tower - where Denethor had his special viewing chamber with the Palantier - definitiely not big enough for a large number of catapults.

Look at it this way.

1. Denethor has catapults - but how big does he have them built. Maybe he should have built ones big enough to lob big rocks 10 miles - but he clearly didn't.
2. Sauron, planning his assault, has excellent spying ability with *HIS* Palantir and so can easily know what size catapults Denethor *does* have.
3. Sauron then builds larger catapults, capable of throwing 1000 feet further than Denethor's.
4. By the time Sauron starts his attack, it's too late for Denethor to build new and larger catapults.
5. Sauron just sets down out of range of Denethor's 'pults and lets loose.

Also, remember that Sauron's catapults did not need to be able to hurl large Truck-sized rocks. Just human heads and other shot that was incendiary.

He had no plan to try and batter down the walls - that was only in the Peter Jackson adaptation, not in the books. Lighter shot requires a smaller catapult to be hurled large distances.

Thus, for example, Sauron could observe Denethor had catapults capable of hurling 1-ton boulders, say, 1 mile - and counter by building catapults capable of hurling 10-pound shells & heads 1.2 or 1.3 miles. And, because of the weight differential, his would be far more portable. Then he sets up his trenches 1.2 miles from the wall (1 mile plus the added range from a 700 foot elevation difference) and starts lobbing.

Also, note that Sauron had no need to try and shoot catapults in the citadel. He was trying to start fires and sow despair. His targets are in the lower city.

[Lalwendë]

Nice thread!

I think that the difference between the two powers lay in the false pride of the Gondorians and the superior technology and tactics of Sauron's forces. Let's look...

At first men laughed and did not greatly fear such devices. For the main wall of the City was of great height and marvellous thickness, built ere the power and craft of Numenor waned in exile; and its outward face was like to the Tower of Orthanc, hard and dark and smooth, unconquerable by steel or fire, unbreakable except by some convulsion that would rend the very earth on which it stood.

The walls of Minas Tirith are mighty, and believed impregnable. Remember that this is the final sanctuary of Gondor. To get there, any force must first take Minas Ithil and then Osgiliath. The walls are designed to keep forces out at the last. But walls to protect are only as good as the weakness of the force beseiging them. If it's a strong force, then those within can be beaten by other means. And the residents know this:

'Nay,' they said, 'not if the Nameless One himself should come, not even he could enter here while we yet live.' But some answered: 'While we yet live? How long? He has a weapon that has brought low many strong places since the world began. Hunger. The roads are cut. Rohan will not come.'

Sauron's force know this. And they have the technology to force the inevitable despair to come on more quickly. Their seige engines and catapults aren't designed to smash or crush, just to fling lighter, and often firey, missiles at a greater height. They also have more advanced weaponry:

and as the trenches were made each was filled with fire, though how it
was kindled or fed, by art or devilry, none could see.

As soon as the great catapults were set, with many yells and the creaking of rope and winch, they began to throw missiles marvellously high, so that they passed right above the battlement and fell thudding within the first circle of the City; and many of them by some secret art burst into flame as they came toppling down.

The catapults aren't described as small, and presumably with a vast and brutalised army at his disposal, dragging huge war engines across the plain might not be such a problem for Sauron. They are also set up behind those firey trenches so presumably they also do not move once set up.

Therefore, you can assume that Minas Tirith simply did not have catapults which could outmatch them, even given the advantage of height. Why is interesting. Is that because the residents felt safe behind that wall? Perhaps they were unable to place large catapults due to the design of the city (which is very old). Perhaps it was a lack of resources.

The following shows Sauron's tactics again and how they worked. He has ignored the impossibility of breaching the wall and instead used his tech to spread despair and incendiaries over the wall. Some of the garrison have run away sickened at the sight of the heads of their comrades used as missiles, others have had to help put out the raging inferno. There's now hardly anyone to defend the city from those running up to attack it. The only thing that can stop it now is an attack on the rear or flank of Sauron's forces, and nobody expects this.

Fires now raged unchecked in the first circle of the City, and
the garrison upon the outer wall was already in many places cut off from retreat. But the faithful who remained there at their posts were few; most had fled beyond the second gate.
Far behind the battle the River had been swiftly bridged, and all day more force and gear of war had poured across. Now at last in the middle night the assault was loosed. The vanguard passed through the trenches of fire by many devious paths that had been left between them. On they came, reckless of their loss as they approached, still bunched and herded, within the range of bowmen on the wall. But indeed there were too few now left there to do them great damage, though the light of the fires showed up many a mark for archers of such skill as Gondor once had boasted. Then perceiving that the valour of the City was already beaten down, the hidden Captain put forth his strength. Slowly the great siege-towers built in Osgiliath rolled forward through the dark.

[TheAzn]

Sorry for my week long absence, guys. I have been a bit busy.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Nice thread!

I think that the difference between the two powers lay in the false pride of the Gondorians and the superior technology and tactics of Sauron's forces. Let's look...

The walls of Minas Tirith are mighty, and believed impregnable. Remember that this is the final sanctuary of Gondor. To get there, any force must first take Minas Ithil and then Osgiliath. The walls are designed to keep forces out at the last. But walls to protect are only as good as the weakness of the force beseiging them. If it's a strong force, then those within can be beaten by other means. And the residents know this:

Sauron's force know this. And they have the technology to force the inevitable despair to come on more quickly. Their seige engines and catapults aren't designed to smash or crush, just to fling lighter, and often firey, missiles at a greater height. They also have more advanced weaponry:

The catapults aren't described as small, and presumably with a vast and brutalised army at his disposal, dragging huge war engines across the plain might not be such a problem for Sauron. They are also set up behind those firey trenches so presumably they also do not move once set up.

Therefore, you can assume that Minas Tirith simply did not have catapults which could outmatch them, even given the advantage of height. Why is interesting. Is that because the residents felt safe behind that wall? Perhaps they were unable to place large catapults due to the design of the city (which is very old). Perhaps it was a lack of resources.

The following shows Sauron's tactics again and how they worked. He has ignored the impossibility of breaching the wall and instead used his tech to spread despair and incendiaries over the wall. Some of the garrison have run away sickened at the sight of the heads of their comrades used as missiles, others have had to help put out the raging inferno. There's now hardly anyone to defend the city from those running up to attack it. The only thing that can stop it now is an attack on the rear or flank of Sauron's forces, and nobody expects this.

Hey Lalwende. This is a good post!!! Thank you for providing quotes from the book.

At first men laughed and did not greatly fear such devices. For the main wall of the City was of great height and marvellous thickness, built ere the power and craft of Numenor waned in exile; and its outward face was like to the Tower of Orthanc, hard and dark and smooth, unconquerable by steel or fire, unbreakable except by some convulsion that would rend the very earth on which it stood.

Not greatly fearing the devices, any reasonable person can understand. But to laugh? As shown by the people countering me on this thread, it does not take a physicist to immediately realise that lighter - but still deadly - things can be thrown over the walls. Firebombs that cause raging infernos are one of them. Infected body parts and animal wastes are another. No seasoned, elite soldiers should display such a lack in correct judgement - especially when some of their friends just ate dirt on the Pelennor Fields. Professor Tolkien was not an infallible author, and this is probably another good example of a few things that he had not really thought through.

Therefore, you can assume that Minas Tirith simply did not have catapults which could outmatch them, even given the advantage of height. Why is interesting.

This is indeed probably what Tolkien wanted things to be, and he would be substantially mistaken based on the situations that the professor himself created.

Is that because the residents felt safe behind that wall?

Unlikely so, as have been discussed above.

Perhaps they were unable to place large catapults due to the design of the city (which is very old).

This has been refuted. Between Minas Tirith lacking spaces and having a lot of spaces, there are more evidence for the latter. I will explain more below in what will be my responses to the general arguments made against me.

Perhaps it was a lack of resources.

This has also been refuted. Every aspect of the Gondorian military that we have read about has been well maintained. Even horses - useless in siege warfare with the exceptions in communications and rare rescue operations - were kept in great numbers in Minas Tirith ( there were at least 100 mounted Swan Knights of Dol Amroth). Those stables used to housed horses could have been cleared away for more spaces, not that Minas Tirith was lacking in any.

[TheAzn]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

I'm not sure the math works out quite like your picture suggests. In an optimal trajectory the angle of the projectile will be at about 45 degrees so an elevation of 700 feet (even assuming the Citadel wall was manned by catapults - which Tolkien never wrote) would give an extra 700 foot range (plus or minus) - that's less that 2/10 of a mile. All Sauron has to do is move his catapults back a couple of city blocks.

And note that the 1000 foot elevation is only from the top of the White Tower - where Denethor had his special viewing chamber with the Palantier - definitiely not big enough for a large number of catapults.

Look at it this way.

1. Denethor has catapults - but how big does he have them built. Maybe he should have built ones big enough to lob big rocks 10 miles - but he clearly didn't.
2. Sauron, planning his assault, has excellent spying ability with *HIS* Palantir and so can easily know what size catapults Denethor *does* have.
3. Sauron then builds larger catapults, capable of throwing 1000 feet further than Denethor's.
4. By the time Sauron starts his attack, it's too late for Denethor to build new and larger catapults.
5. Sauron just sets down out of range of Denethor's 'pults and lets loose.

Also, remember that Sauron's catapults did not need to be able to hurl large Truck-sized rocks. Just human heads and other shot that was incendiary.

He had no plan to try and batter down the walls - that was only in the Peter Jackson adaptation, not in the books. Lighter shot requires a smaller catapult to be hurled large distances.

Thus, for example, Sauron could observe Denethor had catapults capable of hurling 1-ton boulders, say, 1 mile - and counter by building catapults capable of hurling 10-pound shells & heads 1.2 or 1.3 miles. And, because of the weight differential, his would be far more portable. Then he sets up his trenches 1.2 miles from the wall (1 mile plus the added range from a 700 foot elevation difference) and starts lobbing.

Also, note that Sauron had no need to try and shoot catapults in the citadel. He was trying to start fires and sow despair. His targets are in the lower city.

Puddleglum, this is quite a good post. However, it still contains many large fundamental problems. I will get back to you later.

[Galadriel55]

The Azn, I also think your drawing is inaccurate. When looking at it, the catapults higher up shoot a farther horizontal distance - which I believe is your point. But what that drawing shows is not the advantage of height, but rather that the catapults higher up have more power than those down below, which is not the topic here. All catapults, regardless of their height, throw their loads (assuming the loads are the same) the same distance, and from there it's gravity against inertia. In your drawing, your catapults far up shoot a farther horiontal distance than those down below before the inertia vs gravity thing starts (that would certainly take the load forward some more, but more downwards).

It's hard to explain this without a picture, and mine isn't accurate either, but it shows the difference between what it should be and what you drew. The diagram on the left shows three same-power catapults shooting the same loads, and on the right is what your diagram says. Because I know I won't be accurate I did not draw the trajectories all the way, but even so you can see that it's not first and foremost a question of height, but rather a question of the proportion of height against the distance in front of the catapult that is still your own castle. Certainly the overall distance the highest catapult shots is greater than the lower catapults. But the lower catapults have less Minas Tirith to shoot over too.

Secondly, the advantage in height does not mean the catapult has power to shoot farther. It does not come in with the horizontal distance the catapult projects it's load. It comes after, when the load is already losing height. In this matter I think Mumriken has the better illustration of the trajectories. They are all, regardless of height, the same parabola, but the more room they have the farther they can go - but you know that after a certain point a parabola changes vertically more than horizontally.

And lastly, I want to say again this point that is unrelated to diagrams but also important. Minas Tirith probably did not have catapults at its higher levels, especially that jut of rock in the Citadel.

[Mumriken]

the projectiles seem to shoot too randomly, which should not have happened; ancient artilleries were more consistent than what some might give them credit for. The simulation was so random that the back artillery once hit another artillery on its own side!!! Secondly, although the difference might not be much, air is less dense at 100 ft upwards. Your simulation does not appear to take variations in friction into account.

The reason they're so random is because of the friction between the rock and the catapult itself. I made lots of tests to see what the most common result was. As you can see the back catapults hardly reaches the mordor forces. Your drawing makes it look like they would reach far into the lines which isn't true. You could think of the randomness as different sized blocks of stone. Also you can't really say my simulation is more inacurrate than your drawing since it actually uses a real physic model to simulate what would actually happen. Now you could complain about the perfectly round balls or the force the catapults throws the stones away with. But that still doesn't take away from it showing that your drawing is way off.
EDIT: Also I don't think they placed catapults on that stone thing sticking out.

[TheAzn]

Hey Galadriel55 and Mumriken, most of your points would have been covered in what would have been my response to Puddleglum, Lalwende and my post afterwards.

[Mumriken]

Looking at your drawing again, they would probably reach longer if they used one of these.

But still as Galadriel's drawing and my simulation pointed out. The catapult at the back wouldn't reach the furthest into the lines. The height isn't such a big advantage except if the stones were thrown away very HORIZONTALLY and which much greater force. (Like a bullet)

But these are thrown high up in the air and therefore doesn't reach that far. (See simulation for more detail) Also the movie itself confirms the simulation and the drawing so...game over buddy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAW2LxJRLqM

[TheAzn]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

The reason they're so random is because of the friction between the rock and the catapult itself. I made lots of tests to see what the most common result was. As you can see the back catapults hardly reaches the mordor forces. Your drawing makes it look like they would reach far into the lines which isn't true. You could think of the randomness as different sized blocks of stone. Also you can't really say my simulation is more inacurrate than your drawing since it actually uses a real physic model to simulate what would actually happen. Now you could complain about the perfectly round balls or the force the catapults throws the stones away with. But that still doesn't take away from it showing that your drawing is way off.
EDIT: Also I don't think they placed catapults on that stone thing sticking out.

Since I have already typed them out, I will repeat what I have said to miss Galadriel55.

Originally Posted by TheAzn

Hey Galadriel55. Besides a few things, I pretty much agree with what you said, but there are a few problems. Before expressing your opinion on who is more accurate, please have the courtesy to wait and ask for more clarity. Before I continue, I would like to say that I am at fault also. I should have been more clearer in my OP. As stated in my later post, there is less air friction the higher up you go. My drawing takes this fact into account. But more important is the fact that the catapults in my drawing were meant to not shoot the same loads. I guess I have to make some edits for my drawings.
And yes, I am saying that the Gondorians can use even lighter loads than the Mordorians to bombard , while the Mordorians can only cause “little” damage with their light but still heavier loads. I will explain more below in what will be my great responses to the general arguments made against me.

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Now you could complain about the perfectly round balls or the force the catapults throws the stones away with

Well, what I am going to do is not really complaining, more like pointing out your mistakes. If you were to think things through a bit more carefully, you would see that the Gondorians would, if Tolkien is consistent, have very likely produced exactly those round stones or any other aerodynamically efficient projectiles - especially if those projectiles are small and thus do not require much resources.

As stated already, just because I agree with Peter Jackson does not mean that I agree with him entirely. I agree with Peter Jackson more than Professor Tolkien on this particular event because it makes sense for Gondor to be able to reach the Mordorian artilleries. I have never claimed that Peter Jackson was right by making the Gondorians shoot boulders against the Mordorians. My original drawing was supposed to portray the flight path of aerodynamically efficient projectiles.

[TheAzn]

My Grand Refutation to the General Counter-Arguments Made Against Me
There are four main points that I would like to make that would refute most of the people’s arguments on this thread. These four points are, in no particular order: (1) Despite having strong walls, the Gondorians still have many overwhelming incentives to use the best artilleries; (2) Gondor can use light projectiles too, and can amazingly still create more damages than the Mordorians; (3) If Tolkien is to remain consistent, then there is nothing in Minas Tirith that would prevent the use and deployment of artilleries; (4) There are limits as to how bad the Gondorian artilleries can be and there are limits as to how good the Mordorian artilleries can be.
Due to the nature of the debate, I will provide multiple pictures. Because there are restrictions on how many pictures I can put down per post, my arguments will come in multiple posts.


Let us now begin. As you can see, the simplified picture below shows a trebuchet-like artillery firing a piece of projectile. The dotted lines represent the forward path of the projectile if it was to be fired from a ground level position. When the projectile crosses the dotted lines, that would have been its maximum range at ground level.


With the basic things - I hope - starting out clearly, let me show you a revised edition of my first drawing. In this revision, you can now clearly see that the parabola is not symmetrical, and the last half of the trajectory tend to drop down faster than the rise of the first half. The walls will not be exactly equal in height, since Professor Tolkien merely stated that each walls were “about 100 feet higher” than the other. This, in case you are wondering, is why the 1st wall is about 70 feet in height in my picture.


As can be seen from the dotted lines, each artilleries on the Gondorian sides are firing the same load. The most interesting question, then, is why are the Gondorians are outranging the Mordorians when the Gondorians have weaker artilleries. There are 2 answers and both should have been easily understood from the beginning. The first answer is that the Gondorians have a sheer advantage in height. Past the dotted lines, the projectiles fired from Minas Tirith was able to gain more range, even when they are going down faster than going forward. This is an advantage that the Mordorians do not have.
The second and more important answer is that the Gondorians are using lighter projectiles, even lighter than what the Mordorians are using. We know that a human head weigh around 8 to 12 lbs. So, assuming that the Mordorians did not fire multiple heads per round, 8 to 12 lbs are the smallest weight of projectile possible for certain Mordorian artilleries that are firing. The firebombs are a bit tricky, since Tolkien can simply invoke magic. However, just in case some people are curious, a mere gallon of “average” oil weigh from 6 to 8 lbs.
The Gondorians can simply respond to this threat by shooting stones weighing from 5 lbs to 4 lbs to 2 lbs. In other words, these stones would weigh- respectively speaking - twice, thrice and six times less than the heads thrown from the Mordorian lines. The Gondorians should have no problem reaching the baddies.

But this begs a question. How can a mere 5 lb - much less a 2lb - stone do great damages? The answer to the interesting question is very clear: please look at the blue lines on the above drawing. The Gondorians have extra help from friendly gravity, something that the Mordorians do not. Of course, lines might be confusing to some people here, so I decided to call for help. The people that I just called are Saruman the White and Mr. Grima, who are now good guys. They will teleport here to the Pelennor Fields, and the Orthanc will come with them. Hi Ho!!!!!! They are here now, in the middle of the Mordorian forces, throwing 5 lb stones from the various heights of the Orthanc.

The picture below shows the Gondorian artilleries from the bottom 3 levels firing 5 lb stones, while Grima, at the same heights, redeems himself by throwing 5 lb stones at another piece of Modorian artilleries.

[TheAzn]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

The Azn, I also think your drawing is inaccurate. When looking at it, the catapults higher up shoot a farther horizontal distance - which I believe is your point. But what that drawing shows is not the advantage of height, but rather that the catapults higher up have more power than those down below, which is not the topic here. All catapults, regardless of their height, throw their loads (assuming the loads are the same) the same distance, and from there it's gravity against inertia. In your drawing, your catapults far up shoot a farther horiontal distance than those down below before the inertia vs gravity thing starts (that would certainly take the load forward some more, but more downwards).

Hey Galadriel55. Besides a few things, I pretty much agree with what you said, but there are a few problems. Before expressing your opinion on who is more accurate, please have the courtesy to wait and ask for more clarity. Before I continue, I would like to say that I am at fault also. I should have been more clearer in my OP. As stated in my later post, there is less air friction the higher up you go. My drawing takes this fact into account. But more important is the fact that the catapults in my drawing were meant to not shoot the same loads. I guess I have to make some edits for my drawings.
And yes, I am saying that the Gondorians can use even lighter loads than the Mordorians to bombard , while the Mordorians can only cause “little” damage with their light but still heavier loads. I will explain more below in what will be my great responses to the general arguments made against me.

It's hard to explain this without a picture, and mine isn't accurate either, but it shows the difference between what it should be and what you drew. The diagram on the left shows three same-power catapults shooting the same loads, and on the right is what your diagram says. Because I know I won't be accurate I did not draw the trajectories all the way, but even so you can see that it's not first and foremost a question of height, but rather a question of the proportion of height against the distance in front of the catapult that is still your own castle. Certainly the overall distance the highest catapult shots is greater than the lower catapults. But the lower catapults have less Minas Tirith to shoot over too.

If we are talking about the same load, then yes you are quite right. But just to be perfectly clear on one thing, even the catapults placed on the lower wall will have the advantage of height, if Tolkien is consistent with his writing. The advantage will not be humongous, but it will be significant if the height is somewhere around 100 ft.

Secondly, the advantage in height does not mean the catapult has power to shoot farther. It does not come in with the horizontal distance the catapult projects it's load. It comes after, when the load is already losing height. In this matter I think Mumriken has the better illustration of the trajectories. They are all, regardless of height, the same parabola, but the more room they have the farther they can go - but you know that after a certain point a parabola changes vertically more than horizontally.

Besides your opinion on the accuracy of Mumriken’s illustration compared to mine, I pretty much agree with you. Yes, after a certain point, the parabola changes vertically more than horizontally.

And lastly, I want to say again this point that is unrelated to diagrams but also important. Minas Tirith probably did not have catapults at its higher levels, especially that jut of rock in the Citadel.

This is the greatest problem with your post. The evidence is actually quite to the contrary; catapults, if Professor Tolkien is to remain consistent, would have very likely been placed at the higher levels, and the jut of rock is no exception.

[TheAzn]

Good morning, Puddleglum. As stated, there are many large fundamental problems with your arguments and I will now explain why.

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

I'm not sure the math works out quite like your picture suggests. In an optimal trajectory the angle of the projectile will be at about 45 degrees so an elevation of 700 feet (even assuming the Citadel wall was manned by catapults - which Tolkien never wrote) would give an extra 700 foot range (plus or minus) - that's less that 2/10 of a mile. All Sauron has to do is move his catapults back a couple of city blocks.

And note that the 1000 foot elevation is only from the top of the White Tower - where Denethor had his special viewing chamber with the Palantier - definitiely not big enough for a large number of catapults.

Look at it this way.

1. Denethor has catapults - but how big does he have them built. Maybe he should have built ones big enough to lob big rocks 10 miles - but he clearly didn't.
2. Sauron, planning his assault, has excellent spying ability with *HIS* Palantir and so can easily know what size catapults Denethor *does* have.
3. Sauron then builds larger catapults, capable of throwing 1000 feet further than Denethor's.
4. By the time Sauron starts his attack, it's too late for Denethor to build new and larger catapults.
5. Sauron just sets down out of range of Denethor's 'pults and lets loose.

Also, remember that Sauron's catapults did not need to be able to hurl large Truck-sized rocks. Just human heads and other shot that was incendiary.

He had no plan to try and batter down the walls - that was only in the Peter Jackson adaptation, not in the books. Lighter shot requires a smaller catapult to be hurled large distances.

Thus, for example, Sauron could observe Denethor had catapults capable of hurling 1-ton boulders, say, 1 mile - and counter by building catapults capable of hurling 10-pound shells & heads 1.2 or 1.3 miles. And, because of the weight differential, his would be far more portable. Then he sets up his trenches 1.2 miles from the wall (1 mile plus the added range from a 700 foot elevation difference) and starts lobbing.

Also, note that Sauron had no need to try and shoot catapults in the citadel. He was trying to start fires and sow despair. His targets are in the lower city.

And note that the 1000 foot elevation is only from the top of the White Tower - where Denethor had his special viewing chamber with the Palantier - definitiely not big enough for a large number of catapults.

Yes, I know that, which is why I did not draw any artilleries on top of the White Tower itself. This is also the reason why I put the height of the artilleries as being from 100 to 200 to 500 to 800 feet high out of the total height 1000 feet. I will now revise and say that the maximum height of the artilleries should be about 700 feet. The result came from subtracting the height of the White Tower, which is 300 feet by itself, with the total height of Minas Tirith (around 1000 feet).

(even assuming the Citadel wall was manned by catapults - which Tolkien never wrote)

There are no things in Minas Tirith that would inhibit the placement of small catapults on the Citadel Wall, and I would explain more of this later on below.

Look at it this way.

1. Denethor has catapults - but how big does he have them built. Maybe he should have built ones big enough to lob big rocks 10 miles - but he clearly didn't.

Just to clear up any potential misconception, Denethor does not have to shoot 10 miles. As already stated, 10 miles is the maximum distance of separation from Minas Tirith to Rammas Echor. There are parts of the Rammas Echor that is more than 3 to 4 times as close to Minas Tirith when compared to the furthest distance of separation. As you have already known, 40,000 Mordorians is a very conservative number; heck even 80,000 is still considered to be a moderately conservative number. With this in mind, the Mordorians/Morgulians/Haradrims/etc. would have to be far closer to Minas Tirith than 7 miles.

Sauron, planning his assault, has excellent spying ability with *HIS* Palantir and so can easily know what size catapults Denethor *does* have.

And the Gondorians have excellent spying ability as well. Some of the examples would be the fact that the Mumakils and the trolls did not escape Gondorian attentions. In fact, in the case of the Mumakils, the Gondorians have enough time to plan and lay a near perfect ambush. Assessing the strength of the Mordorian artilleries is the matter of life and death for the Gondorians. We know that Denethor, even with small hope, prepared extensively for the siege of life and death, even to the point of having some horses. Horses, besides using to send some messages, are essentially useless and served no purpose in siege warfare. If such things of low priority are worked on, one can imagine the attention paid to the most important things beside walls in siege warfare - artilleries.

• Sauron then builds larger catapults, capable of throwing 1000 feet further than Denethor's.
• By the time Sauron starts his attack, it's too late for Denethor to build new and larger catapults.
• Sauron just sets down out of range of Denethor's 'pults and lets loose.[/

1. 1000 feet in more range is not an easy feat. If I am not wrong, I believe that the consensus on the Barrowdowns is that, despite outnumbering the Gondorians by a wide margin, Mordor does not have much resources. Mordor might have a million force for the entire Middle Earth, but not tens of millions. The Witch King outnumbered Minas Tirith, but at the cost of emptying Morgul Vale and nearby Haradrims. You can imagine the cost in life for the Mordorians by just transporting -what would have been- a very ginormous machine across broken roads and terrain. Of course, I even doubt that such machinese can even exist, for even the mighty trebuchet of the technologically advanced period of the Middle Ages cannot match archers on the ground - albeit when used to tear down walls.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV1mVWI413M
2. This has already been stated above, but I will repeat it again. Denethor and the Gondorians have every chance to know about the Mordorian artilleries. The Gondorians being cocky enough to think that artilleries cannot throw light objects does not make much sense
3. This has already been explained in #1.

He had no plan to try and batter down the walls - that was only in the Peter Jackson adaptation, not in the books. Lighter shot requires a smaller catapult to be hurled large distances.

So you admit that heads were thrown? Good, because heads are not light. An average human head weighs from 8 to 12 pounds, as much as a small size stone*. *Rember what I said about the stone. As for firebombs, fire needs fuel. A mere gallon of oil weighs from 7 to 8 pound. Even though there are some wooden component, most of the city's architecture are made out of stone. To cause such large fires, the Mordorians would need a lot of gallons of oil. Of course, Professor Tolkien could escape this criticism by claiming magic.

Th

us, for example, Sauron could observe Denethor had catapults capable of hurling 1-ton boulders, say, 1 mile - and counter by building catapults capable of hurling 10-pound shells & heads 1.2 or 1.3 miles. And, because of the weight differential, his would be far more portable. Then he sets up his trenches 1.2 miles from the wall (1 mile plus the added range from a 700 foot elevation difference) and starts lobbing.

The refutation has already been explained above. Denethor does not have to throw a 1 ton boulder to cause damages. I will admit that the great director, Peter Jackson, does not make much sense here. For the Mordorian machines to throw even light objects much further than artilleries with sheer height advantage, there is no escaping the fact that the machines would have to be very large.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by TheAzn

1. 1000 feet in more range is not an easy feat. If I am not wrong, I believe that the consensus on the Barrowdowns is that, despite outnumbering the Gondorians by a wide margin, Mordor does not have much resources. Mordor might have a million force for the entire Middle Earth, but not tens of millions. The Witch King outnumbered Minas Tirith, but at the cost of emptying Morgul Vale and nearby Haradrims. You can imagine the cost in life for the Mordorians by just transporting -what would have been- a very ginormous machine across broken roads and terrain. Of course, I even doubt that such machinese can even exist, even the mighty trebuchet of the technologically advanced period of the Middle Ages, cannot match archers on the ground - albeit when used to tear down walls.

Well what do the resources have to do with anything? And you're not correct here. Mordor had so many human resources it could almost be called an infinite amount. Denethor sees in the palantir that the vast force that stands at his door is but a small portion of what Sauron has, and that is the reason for his despair.

2. This has already been stated above, but I will repeat it again. Denethor and the Gondorians have every chance to know about the Mordorian artilleries. The Gondorians being cocky enough to think that artilleries cannot throw light objects does not make much sense

Oh but it does, unless you really want it not to. All your life you know that catapults are used to hurl large rocks to break fortress walls. Well, you happen to live in a fortress that has walls that won't break. Why would you expect the catapults to be used for other things? A light load would not break even weak walls.

Let me give you an analogy. If you write with milk instead of ink, the writing would be invisible until you iron it a certain way, at which point you would be able to see everything. But most normal people would just write like normal people. Would you iron every letter you get to see if there's something written on it in milk? Would you suspect something every time you see milk in the fridge?

How can you assume that the Gondorians would have known that Mordor wants to fire heads of dead warriors at them?

3. This has already been explained in #1.

It doesn't have to be a difference of 1000 feet, you know. About thirty is quite enough.