Tolkien's Funny Bone

[MCRmyGirl4eva]

I find lots of little jokes in his work. One of the things that I consider beautiful about his work is that to appreciate the jokes, you have to have good reading comprehension skills. My favorite joke is actually displayed as my siggie.

[jallanite]

Tolkien original work from which The Silmarillion ultimately sprang was The Book of Lost Tales and reading it shows Tolkien’s original conception was lighter and there is even some obvious intentional humour.

For example (emphasis mine):

… and the cliffs are full of a chattering and a smell of fish, and great conclaves are held upon their ledges, or among spits and reefs among the waters.

And soon after:

But Ulmo fares at the rear in his fishy car and trumpets loudly for the discomfiture of Ossë and the rescue of the Shoreland pipers.

From the second volume:

Now Tevildo seeing Beren narrowed his eyes until they seemed to shut, and said: “I smell dog”, and he took dislike to Beren from that moment.

And soon after:

… and she teaches him how to sit and sprawl, to step and bound and trot in the semblance of a cat, till Huan’s very whiskers bristled at the sight, and thereat Beren and Tinúviel laughed. Never however could Beren learn to screech or wail or to purr like any cat that ever walked, nor could Tinúviel awaken a glow in the dead eyes of the catskin ‒ “but we must put up with that,” said she, “and thou hast the air of a very noble cat if thou but hold thy tongue.”

And possibly:

… and I have learned it by heart, reading it in the great books, and I do not comprehend all that is set therein.

This may lightly refer to the teller here being a young girl who is understood to not fully comprehend sexual matters related more fully in the versions of the tale she has read. Or for those who think that Beren and Tinúviel did not have sex during their first life, then it may refer to the statement: “for his [Melko’s] dark mind pondered some evil.”

When Tolkien rendered his tales into verse the general lightness disappeared. (Though the tale of Túrin was always grim.)

But the Silmarillion was always in intention a very abbreviated version of Tolkien’s legendarium. How much humour would have survived in a similarly abbreviated version of The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings?

[Bêthberry]

One thing lately I've been pondering is how Dante's Divine Comedy can be called a comedy, in that it leads to a positive affirmation (heaven) rather than hell, even though it isn't "funny'". (This is a very brief generalisation!)

Could the same traditional argument be made for the Silm, that it leads to the sailing West of most of the Eldar and the imprisonment of Melkor? There is grief and loss, and the fear of further dark seed of the fruit of Melkor in the future, but Elves are restored to the love of Manwe and the pardon of the Valor.

Anyone know Dante well enough to take this query on?

[jallanite]

Well from the Wikipedia entry for Divine Comedy:

Dante called the poem “Comedy” (the adjective “Divine″ was added later in the 14th century) because poems in the ancient world were classified as High (“Tragedy”) or Low (“Comedy”). Low poems had happy endings and were written in everyday language, whereas High poems treated more serious matters and were written in an elevated style. Dante was one of the first in the Middle Ages to write of a serious subject, the Redemption of Man, in the low and “vulgar” Italian language and not the Latin one might expect for such a serious topic.

I’ve read variants of this explanation in other places. In classical times the terms tragedy and comedy were only applied to drama but in the Middle Ages many classifiers tried to apply the terms to all of literature. Essentially if a work had a happy ending, it was a comedy, though it might not be very humorous.

The “Quenta Silmarillion”seems to be to have by intended to be an interconnected cycle of stories, some of which (for example, that of Beren and Lúthien) had happy endings and some of which (for example, that of Húrin and Túrin) did not. At the time of its supposed telling, perhaps near the beginning of the Second Age, from the viewpoint of those who may be imagined to first have heard it, they would see themselves to be in the middle of a continuing story in which the“Quenta Silmarillion” was the first part. That part had ended somewhat happily, sufficiently so that it might be called a comedy as a whole, at least by those desperate enough to attempt to fit all stories into only two genres.

Similarly The Lord of the Rings might be called a comedy.

So, yes, the same argument works for the “Quenta Silmariilion″ and the Divine Comedy, but the works are still very much not alike. For one thing, the Divine Comedy attempts to portray a universe congruent both with Dante’s religious beliefs and common scientific beliefs about the universe. The “Quenta Silmariilion″ portrays a flat Earth in which the Sun and Moon were created approximately at the same time long after the Earth was created, in contradiction both to taking the Bible literally and to Tolkien’s own personal beliefs.

Both Dante and Tolkien were aware that they were writing fantasy, but Dante was doing so with the net up (while aware that his inventions were only his inventions) while Tolkien was purposely imagining, at that point, a universe which more closely resembled that of classical mythology than what he saw as reality.

Also, Dante in his poem explores the entire cosmos while such exploration of the cosmos as occurs in Tolkien’s “Quenta Silmarillion” takes place almost only at the very beginning and end of the work and is purposely vague on the details.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by jallanite

So, yes, the same argument works for the “Quenta Silmariilion″ and the Divine Comedy

Perhaps, but if we think of a "comedy" being the story with a happy ending, it's worth to look at how Tolkien ended the Silmarillion.

"Here ends the SILMARILLION. If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to darkness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwe and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos."

So, even though Morgoth is ousted, and a remnant survives, Tolkien seems to want us to see the story (up to that point) as being fundamentally unresolved, the the resolution (even if future) being hidden and, to the inhabitants, uncertain (at least any hope rests firmly in the concept of Estel).

That makes it seem to me (at least possibly) more as a "Tragedy" rather than "Comedy" (to use the medieval terms).

[jallanite]

Your quotation to me is a good indication as to why it was foolish for some medieval critics to try to define every tale as either a tragedy or comedy. A tale can be both or neither and still be an excellent tale.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

One thing lately I've been pondering is how Dante's Divine Comedy can be called a comedy, in that it leads to a positive affirmation (heaven) rather than hell, even though it isn't "funny'". (This is a very brief generalisation!)

The 14th century Italian word Dante used was "commedia", which does not necessarily translate to the modern word "comedy". Like many words the term comedy has changed over time (the word awful comes to mind, originally signifying "full of awe", or the Latin defæcatus, which meant to "purify" or "cleanse from the dirt/dregs", and now is used in an altered sense as defecate). Commedia (or the Old French "comedie") related to poems specifically (and later stories) with a lighter tone than tragedies. In this sense, Dante considered his Commedia to be a narrative poem with an agreeable ending (not necessarily happy).

Dante may have found humor in the Divina Commedia (Giovanni Boccaccio added the "Divine" tag, by the way), but even the word "humor" would have meant something completely different to Dante. "Humor" as "funny" or "witty" did not exist until the 17th century. Previous to that the humors described the four types of bodily fluids (sanguine, choleric, melancholic and phlegmatic) whose varying proportions were to said to rule a person's temperment.

But there are elements of satire and dark humor throughout the Divine Comedy, particularly in Hell (Inferno), where Dante has relegated many of his political enemies (like Filippo Argenti, who is torn to pieces along the River Styx), and a pope or two (Boniface VIII and Celestine V). And considering that many virtuous "pagans" are better off in Hell than many Christians, there is a sardonic sense of humor in Dante's jibes at the established order, higher clergy and aristocrats in early Renaissance Italy.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Could the same traditional argument be made for the Silm, that it leads to the sailing West of most of the Eldar and the imprisonment of Melkor? There is grief and loss, and the fear of further dark seed of the fruit of Melkor in the future, but Elves are restored to the love of Manwe and the pardon of the Valor.

Anyone know Dante well enough to take this query on?

I would not consider The Silmarillion a "comedy" in the sense of Dante's Divine Comedy. It is not light or satiric (and if we are going by language, it is heightened and formal, as in tragedies, whereas LotR is more lowbrow, particularly amongst the Hobbits), and there are elements of tragedy throughout the Silmarillion, particularly in the tale of Turin Turambar and Eol and Aredhel. There really is no happy ending as even the final defeat of Morgoth is tempered by the murders committed by Maglor and Maedhros, the loss of the Simlarils and the escape of Sauron. The Long Defeat of the Elves continues, Sauron creates the One Ring, Numenor waxes and wanes and then is destroyed. No, comedy there, not even by Dante's definition. There is no culminating eucatastrophe event that leads to an "agreeable ending" like in LotR.

[Bêthberry]

Thanks for all the replies! Attitudes towards humour and comedy make for some very interesting observations, I think.

Morth, I doubt we need to go back to Latin. I think anyone familiar with The Ring of Words: Tolkien and the Oxford English Dictionary will be well aware of how words change meaning, such as the Old English wan, which began as 'dark, gloomy, black' to become applied to pale or faint things, a change in etymology which Tolkien worked on.

Puddleglum, so nice to see you back and around! You raise the intriguing point that Tolkien was writing about 'great stories that never end', which is a rather modern concept in that it is the process that receives attention rather than the denouement, despite his ideas about eucatastrophe.

Originally Posted by jallanite

Your quotation to me is a good indication as to why it was foolish for some medieval critics to try to define every tale as either a tragedy or comedy. A tale can be both or neither and still be an excellent tale.

Critical theory is still attempting to do what those critics tried, however, in that it attempts to explain how literature works on us. I think, in fairness to the medieval and classical critics, it can said they were trying to understand how literary works affect us rather than solely defining quality.

In looking at the progress of The Silm, we can find far more whimsey and humour in the early versions, particularly in BoLT, than in the edition which Christopher Tolkien produced. Tinfang Warbel comes to mind most immediately, as well as the strong element of mirth and joy in the Cottage of Lost Play. yes, the stories are separate stories, but I find it intriguing to see the variations in tone.

Originally Posted by Morth[/quote

But there are elements of satire and dark humor throughout the Divine Comedy, particularly in Hell (Inferno), where Dante has relegated many of his political enemies (like Filippo Argenti, who is torn to pieces along the River Styx), and a pope or two (Boniface VIII and Celestine V). And considering that many virtuous "pagans" are better off in Hell than many Christians, there is a sardonic sense of humor in Dante's jibes at the established order, higher clergy and aristocrats in early Renaissance Italy

I think one major idea current today about comedy is its subversiveness, starting with Aristophanes' Lysistrata. Parody for example can be pleasant and respectful or undercutting. Is there anything similarly sardonic or subversive in the Silm?

(N.B. I should not attempt to write posts here while commenting on FB at the same time. )

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Critical theory is still attempting to do what those critics tried, however, in that it attempts to explain how literature works on us. I think, in fairness to the medieval and classical critics, it can said they were trying to understand how literary works affect us rather than solely defining quality.

My understanding is that it classical works were mainly preserved through Arab versions and Arab commentators and it was they who began to take essays concerned only with drama to apply to all literature. The early medieval European commentators followed on from that.

Bluntly, I indeed don’t see that modern commentators do much better, which you seem to agree on. Note the academic critical response to Tolkien which is notoriously negative. In a previous era it was Dickens who was outside the pale to academics. And Shakespeare was much denigrated until the academicians recognized comic relief.

First people just liked certain works, and then the academicians invented their theories about why they worked. First comes the popularity contest, then critics who attempt to explain why the work are popular.

Academic discussion about particular works or classes of work are often fine, but academic rules are not general enough to cover works that are just a little outside the norm. Works of art can be as individual as people.

The basic problem seems to me to be that different people have different tastes and no critical theory had yet, so far as I am aware, gotten around that. The rules invented by critics only work for some people some of the time, at best.

In looking at the progress of The Silm, we can find far more whimsey and humour in the early versions, particularly in BoLT, than in the edition which Christopher Tolkien produced. Tinfang Warbel comes to mind most immediately, as well as the strong element of mirth and joy in the Cottage of Lost Play. yes, the stories are separate stories, but I find it intriguing to see the variations in tone.

Yes. Tolkien seems to be originally mostly attempting to imitate William Morris’ fantasies which also have lighter moments. But then, in his heroic verse, he throws out all the whimsey. Then in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Ring he puts it back.

I think one major idea current today about comedy is its subversiveness, starting with Aristophanes' Lysistrata. Parody for example can be pleasant and respectful or undercutting. Is there anything similarly sardonic or subversive in the Silm?

Well almost everything said about the sons of Fëanor could be presented as undercutting, as an indication that rule by heredity mostly doesn’t work, except in the sense that any lord is better than a war between potential lords, or no lord. But I don’t think that that was a message intended by Tolkien. On the contrary, that is one of the messages of Famer Giles of Ham, which is very comic.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"My understanding is that it classical works were mainly preserved through Arab versions and Arab commentators and it was they who began to take essays concerned only with drama to apply to all literature. The early medieval European commentators followed on from that."



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No, not the literary works and commentaries thereon. The Arabs were interested in the scientific, mathematical and medical works, and thus books like Ptolemy's Astronomy became known first in the West via Arabic translations by way of Spain (hence the usual title Almagest, and Arabic star-names still in use); but by far the majority of classical literature was preserved by the Byzantines (the Roman Empire everyone seems to forget about), and began making its way westward starting with the Crusades.