Imagine No Redemption

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I seem to have not made my point clear. I don't disagree. Indeed, I would think the fact that the failure to embrace the chance at repentance is what led to the final judgement on Sauron and Saruman.

Ah yes, now I see what you meant, I misunderstood. Indeed. Basically it's the refusal, quite interesting aspect present more often in the books. We are back at pride again, somewhat coming back in circle: at least in Saruman's case, it is plain that he would never suffer the "humiliation" (as he saw it) to accept forgiveness from somebody else (he says something along these lines to Frodo, too). In Melkor/Sauron's case I believe it was partially also simply the unwillingness to give up their idea of "how things should be done" (does this actually imply Saruman would have been able to change his view of "how it should be done"? Perhaps yes. I think Saruman was, maybe not "wise" anymore, but "educated by the past" enough after the War of the Ring to see that Gandalf's plans succeeded, not his, and he was only bitter and not willing to admit his defeat, but theoretically he knew that Gandalf had been right while his own ideas were flawed).

In any case, the main obstacle in redemption seems really to be the refusal of mercy, be it for whichever reasons. Likewise, Galadriel, when she thinks she no longer qualifies, but would take it (contrary to her end of First Age-decision), gets one more chance.

[Lalwendë]

It's as though there are degrees of evil and good - and I can't help but chuck in some Catholic terminology with my assessment here, whether it's right or wrong, given the emplasis on degrees of evil.

There are definite 'sins' that mark a character as being evil or doing an evil for which they must either perform a redemptive act or accept the chance to repent when offered. There are also those who have a purpose which they fail to achieve because of personal failings, though they do not turn to evil. And there are those who achieve their purpose, do not turn to evil and who achieve the ultimate - the state of grace and a return or removal to Valinor (if desired).

Radagast does not achieve his purpose and he unwittingly aids those with evil intent (though as already stated, he was probably obediently following the leader of his Order). I think we can say that he did not act with any bad intent as a wizard who had such a deep knowledge of the natural world could potentially wreak untold havoc. Use your imagination to consider what a Radagast with evil intent might do with spiders, wolves and eagles at his beck and call. I also do not think he was a 'bit dim', he possesses a different kind of knowledge and one which Tolkien would have respected as being of equal value to the knowledge held by Saruman, perhaps even more valuable. That to me again shows that Radagast did not have a bad intent.

So, he may well have failed to attain any state of 'grace', but I don't think he would have ultimately been denied the chance to return home should he have wished it.

Gollum is an interesting case. He obtains the Ring through an evil act, and once obtained, he will find it difficult to ever turn back from his path. It's debatable of course whether it was the Ring itself that caused him to obtain it in such a way or it was already something in his nature. Either way, he has no chance once he has possession on it. And this is why I feel that he receives pity - those who have the wisdom to see the effects of Sauron's craft on Gollum can see that he is a victim, in much the same way that we might view an addict as a victim.

To achieve redemption is going to be a very different and difficult thing for him. It will be difficult because he will have to realise what he has done wrong and atone for that. It will be different because he will always be shaded by the effects of the Ring for the rest of his life, whether he is 'cured' of his addiction, whether he is not. It's not just that Gollum has made a choice to do evil, it's that Gollum has been driven to do evil. I always say that how he meets his end is perfectly drawn as I can see no 'cure' for him, and in his own way he is redeemed by taking the Ring from Frodo (who is another special case). There may well be a special kind of redemption from Eru for innocents who are corrupted by the evils of the more powerful.

But again, more grey areas creep in...

[Inziladun]

A book I'm re-reading at the moment has got me thinking about this subject again.

In the 14th Century following the Battle of Poitiers in France, knights, mercenaries, and common soldiers, some merely English discharged from duty, others French with their homesteads burned and lands decimated, made their living wandering through the French countryside looting and pillaging.
They put me in mind of the outlaw band joined by Túrin after his departure from Doriath.

For in that time of ruin houseless and desperate Men went astray: remnants of battle and defeat, and lands laid waste; and some were Men driven into the wild for evil deeds.

UT Narn I Hîn Húrin

It was said of those outlaws that they were commonly regarded nearly as badly as Orcs. Túrin certainly shared in their activities while he lived with them.
Nevertheless, when Beleg found Túrin's band and was held captive by them, Túrin's heart was sickened by his way of life.

But Túrin returning and seeing what was done, was stricken with remorse for all their evil and lawless deeds....and Túrin foreswore thenceforward war or plunder against all save the servants of Angband.

Silmarillion Of Túrin Turambar

What I find interesting is that Túrin seems to be the only one of the outlaws of his group who honestly felt remorse for what they'd done, and he was the sole survivor among them of the slaughter on Amon Rûdh.

Was the fact that Túrin did not die there attributable to his repentance? Yes, Morgoth wanted him alive, but still; can the end result of his survival be laid on an observance and acceptance of his true remorse and turning aside from evil (at least for that time)?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Was the fact that Túrin did not die there attributable to his repentance? Yes, Morgoth wanted him alive, but still; can the end result of his survival be laid on an observance and acceptance of his true remorse and turning aside from evil (at least for that time)?

Please tell me that I am not dreaming and you are really saying this positive thing about Turin, and that I, of all people, am about to disagree with it.

On the other hand, the fact that we are disagreeing about him is quite within the norm.

I think that Turin survived the massacare because he was cursed, rather than spared due to his repentance. It seems that either the surse or some innate power of his just makes it so that nothing and no one can kill him. Dunno why it happens; it's part of the mystery and feel of the story. So I wouldn't call Turin's survival a reward for his past good deeds (something positive), but attribute it to whatever it is that makes COH be a tragedy (something very negative).

[jallanite]

I quite agree with Galadriel55.

If we are supposed by Tolkien to imagine that Eru is secretly guiding Túrin’s fate in this matter, then you presumably also imagine that Túrin being the only, or almost the only, survivor from Nargothrond is due to Túrin being helped by Eru, even though the Elves of Narogothrond are not portrayed as at all evil folk.

But then I suppose you do not imagine that Túrin’s marriage to Níniel, not recognizing that she was really his sister, was also Eru’s doing?

That Túrin “seems to be the only one of the outlaws of his group who honestly felt remorse for what they’d done″ is nowhere said in the tale. Indeed it is specifically indicated that Aldgund the Old did feel remorse. That the majority of the band agreed to take Túrin as their captain when he planned to lead them away from the Homes of Men, saying, “at the least we shall earn less hatred of our own kind,” shows that more than one felt that way. Later when Andróg urged the outlaws to slay Beleg, “some of better heart” spoke against Andróg even though the missing Túrin had made Andróg the leader of the band until Túrin returned.

If Tolkien had written a namby-pamby world in which the “good guys” always won, his work would hardly be so popular.

As Tolkien writes in The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, letter 17:

One reader wants fuller details about Gandalf and the Necromancer. But that is too dark – much too much for Richard Hughes’ snag. I am afraid that snag appears in everything; though actually the presence (even if only on the borders) of the terrible is, I believe, what gives this imagined world its verisimilitude. A safe fairy-land is untrue to all worlds.

Tolkien wrote the “Story of Beren and Tinúviel″ which was a romance with an ultimately happy ending. Then he wrote of Túrin which had a sad ending, most of which was not really Túrin’s fault, although Túrin has his flaws.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Please tell me that I am not dreaming and you are really saying this positive thing about Turin, and that I, of all people, am about to disagree it. :eek

Yes. I'll at least give him credit for that, though it took seeing a close friend tied up and in a sorry state to really open his eyes.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think that Turin survived the massacare because he was cursed, rather than spared due to his repentance. It seems that either the surse or some innate power of his just makes it so that nothing and no one can kill him. Dunno why it happens; it's part of the mystery and feel of the story. So I wouldn't call Turin's survival a reward for his past good deeds (something positive), but attribute it to whatever it is that makes COH be a tragedy (something very negative).

Certainly that's a distinct possibility also. I just thought it interesting that Túrin made a special point of renouncing old ways, apparently not only in word, but in deed as well, and just happened to be the sole survivor of the outlaws he had acted with.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by jallanite

If we are supposed by Tolkien to imagine that Eru is secretly guiding Túrin’s fate in this matter, then you presumably also imagine that Túrin being the only, or almost the only, survivor from Nargothrond is due to Túrin being helped by Eru, even though the Elves of Narogothrond are not portrayed as at all evil folk.

Well, if we're talking repentance; when it is necessary and whether it is accepted, then there must be a judge of such things, no?

That's not to say Ilúvatar was trying to "help" Túrin there. I was positing that Túrin's turn away from that evil might have earned him a reprieve from death.

Originally Posted by jallanite

That Túrin “seems to be the only one of the outlaws of his group who honestly felt remorse for what they’d done″ is nowhere said in the tale. Indeed it is specifically indicated that Aldgund the Old did feel remorse. That the majority of the band agreed to take Túrin as their captain when he planned to lead them away from the Homes of Men, saying, “at the least we shall earn less hatred of our own kind,” shows that more than one felt that way. Later when Andróg urged the outlaws to slay Beleg, “some of better heart” spoke against Andróg even though the missing Túrin had made Andróg the leader of the band until Túrin returned.

Yes, others of the band talked of abandoning their old ways, but did they follow through with actions? No way to know. Again, I was merely bringing up a possibility, not insisting on any particular interpretation.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Yes, others of the band talked of abandoning their old ways, but did they follow through with actions? No way to know. Again, I was merely bringing up a possibility, not insisting on any particular interpretation.

Regarding the rest of the band, there's an interesting situation. You have the quotes that jallanite brought up about their wish to do good rather than evil (at least some part of them wishes so). However, I do not think that picking Turin as their leader says a lot about that. I think that they chose Turin for who he was, and for that mysterious something they felt about him (f.ex. when Androg says that he kills "to make room" - that's not a usual way of saying "you just murdered my friend"). They felt like Turin stood a few heads higher than they, so high that sometimes they didn't even question his "weird" actions.

What Turin planned to do when he led them was a secondary matter. The men would have followed him also if he did not choose to repent and wage war only against Morgoth's bunch because he is the dominant one from all of them.

So here I agree more with Zil - there's no way to know how the hearts of the outlaws truly lay.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Yes, others of the band talked of abandoning their old ways, but did they follow through with actions? No way to know. Again, I was merely bringing up a possibility, not insisting on any particular interpretation.

All the outlaws followed Túrin in ceasing their living in areas where other humans dwelt and often raiding them. They followed through with actions. A large number of them insisted in sparing Beleg’s life, overruling their temporary leader Andróg whom Túrin had appointed. These are actions which follow through on what many of them have decided.

If you don’t insist of any particular interpretation, then it would be wiser not to present a particular interpretation as though you agreed with it.