Imagine No Redemption

[jallanite]

I quite agree with Galadriel55.

If we are supposed by Tolkien to imagine that Eru is secretly guiding Túrin’s fate in this matter, then you presumably also imagine that Túrin being the only, or almost the only, survivor from Nargothrond is due to Túrin being helped by Eru, even though the Elves of Narogothrond are not portrayed as at all evil folk.

But then I suppose you do not imagine that Túrin’s marriage to Níniel, not recognizing that she was really his sister, was also Eru’s doing?

That Túrin “seems to be the only one of the outlaws of his group who honestly felt remorse for what they’d done″ is nowhere said in the tale. Indeed it is specifically indicated that Aldgund the Old did feel remorse. That the majority of the band agreed to take Túrin as their captain when he planned to lead them away from the Homes of Men, saying, “at the least we shall earn less hatred of our own kind,” shows that more than one felt that way. Later when Andróg urged the outlaws to slay Beleg, “some of better heart” spoke against Andróg even though the missing Túrin had made Andróg the leader of the band until Túrin returned.

If Tolkien had written a namby-pamby world in which the “good guys” always won, his work would hardly be so popular.

As Tolkien writes in The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, letter 17:

One reader wants fuller details about Gandalf and the Necromancer. But that is too dark – much too much for Richard Hughes’ snag. I am afraid that snag appears in everything; though actually the presence (even if only on the borders) of the terrible is, I believe, what gives this imagined world its verisimilitude. A safe fairy-land is untrue to all worlds.

Tolkien wrote the “Story of Beren and Tinúviel″ which was a romance with an ultimately happy ending. Then he wrote of Túrin which had a sad ending, most of which was not really Túrin’s fault, although Túrin has his flaws.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Please tell me that I am not dreaming and you are really saying this positive thing about Turin, and that I, of all people, am about to disagree it. :eek

Yes. I'll at least give him credit for that, though it took seeing a close friend tied up and in a sorry state to really open his eyes.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think that Turin survived the massacare because he was cursed, rather than spared due to his repentance. It seems that either the surse or some innate power of his just makes it so that nothing and no one can kill him. Dunno why it happens; it's part of the mystery and feel of the story. So I wouldn't call Turin's survival a reward for his past good deeds (something positive), but attribute it to whatever it is that makes COH be a tragedy (something very negative).

Certainly that's a distinct possibility also. I just thought it interesting that Túrin made a special point of renouncing old ways, apparently not only in word, but in deed as well, and just happened to be the sole survivor of the outlaws he had acted with.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by jallanite

If we are supposed by Tolkien to imagine that Eru is secretly guiding Túrin’s fate in this matter, then you presumably also imagine that Túrin being the only, or almost the only, survivor from Nargothrond is due to Túrin being helped by Eru, even though the Elves of Narogothrond are not portrayed as at all evil folk.

Well, if we're talking repentance; when it is necessary and whether it is accepted, then there must be a judge of such things, no?

That's not to say Ilúvatar was trying to "help" Túrin there. I was positing that Túrin's turn away from that evil might have earned him a reprieve from death.

Originally Posted by jallanite

That Túrin “seems to be the only one of the outlaws of his group who honestly felt remorse for what they’d done″ is nowhere said in the tale. Indeed it is specifically indicated that Aldgund the Old did feel remorse. That the majority of the band agreed to take Túrin as their captain when he planned to lead them away from the Homes of Men, saying, “at the least we shall earn less hatred of our own kind,” shows that more than one felt that way. Later when Andróg urged the outlaws to slay Beleg, “some of better heart” spoke against Andróg even though the missing Túrin had made Andróg the leader of the band until Túrin returned.

Yes, others of the band talked of abandoning their old ways, but did they follow through with actions? No way to know. Again, I was merely bringing up a possibility, not insisting on any particular interpretation.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Yes, others of the band talked of abandoning their old ways, but did they follow through with actions? No way to know. Again, I was merely bringing up a possibility, not insisting on any particular interpretation.

Regarding the rest of the band, there's an interesting situation. You have the quotes that jallanite brought up about their wish to do good rather than evil (at least some part of them wishes so). However, I do not think that picking Turin as their leader says a lot about that. I think that they chose Turin for who he was, and for that mysterious something they felt about him (f.ex. when Androg says that he kills "to make room" - that's not a usual way of saying "you just murdered my friend"). They felt like Turin stood a few heads higher than they, so high that sometimes they didn't even question his "weird" actions.

What Turin planned to do when he led them was a secondary matter. The men would have followed him also if he did not choose to repent and wage war only against Morgoth's bunch because he is the dominant one from all of them.

So here I agree more with Zil - there's no way to know how the hearts of the outlaws truly lay.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Yes, others of the band talked of abandoning their old ways, but did they follow through with actions? No way to know. Again, I was merely bringing up a possibility, not insisting on any particular interpretation.

All the outlaws followed Túrin in ceasing their living in areas where other humans dwelt and often raiding them. They followed through with actions. A large number of them insisted in sparing Beleg’s life, overruling their temporary leader Andróg whom Túrin had appointed. These are actions which follow through on what many of them have decided.

If you don’t insist of any particular interpretation, then it would be wiser not to present a particular interpretation as though you agreed with it.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by jallanite

All the outlaws followed Túrin in ceasing their living in areas where other humans dwelt and often raiding them. They followed through with actions. A large number of them insisted in sparing Beleg’s life, overruling their temporary leader Andróg whom Túrin had appointed. These are actions which follow through on what many of them have decided.

I still stand by what I said in my previous post (though admittedly we probably cross-posted); I think many of the actions and decisions of the outlaws were done that way because of how they regarded Turin, not because they truly believed in doing what they did. Perhaps they did believe - the better for them. But you cannot prove that they did, because to me it seems like their motivation stems from their fear, respect, and obedience of Turin, not from their morale.

Originally Posted by jallanite

If you don’t insist of any particular interpretation, then it would be wiser not to present a particular interpretation as though you agreed with it.

A bit of speculation and a different perspective wouldn't hurt the discussion in this thread, would it?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I still stand by what I said in my previous post (though admittedly we probably cross-posted); I think many of the actions and decisions of the outlaws were done that way because of how they regarded Turin, not because they truly believed in doing what they did. Perhaps they did believe - the better for them. But you cannot prove that they did, because to me it seems like their motivation stems from their fear, respect, and obedience of Turin, not from their morale.

Indeed. If the outlaws had truly deplored their actions, why would it have taken Túrin's appearance to show them the error of their ways? Theft, rape, and probably murder had become a way of life to them.
Túrin's change of heart came about when he saw Beleg. He realized then how far he'd fallen. Would all the rest of the band have had a similar revelation, bringing about true remorse?

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Túrin's change of heart came about when he saw Beleg. He realized then how far he'd fallen. Would all the rest of the band have had a similar revelation, bringing about true remorse?

Possibly yes, possibly no. Aldgund quite likely. But as long as many of outlaws were satisfied with their life of plundering and this was supported by their leader they would continue in their way of life.

Tolkien indicates that Túrin “soon became hardened to a mean and often cruel life” and carefully avoids saying that Túrin took no part in the plundering of the other outlaws, which would be very unlikely.

And Túrin’s change of heart happens when slays Forweg, long before he again meets Beleg.

[A Little Green]

Thank you, guys, for a very interesting read!

There is one point I would like to add. On the subject of redemption by death, and how the "sinners" must die after they are redeemed - maybe it is, as suggested, for narrational reasons. Or maybe death was what enabled them to repent in the first place? Thórin works as an example - he thinks better of his ways only on his deathbed, and maybe this isn't because he needs to die after he repents but the other way round: he repents because he knows he is dying. I would argue that the prospect of his own imminent death was a part of what led him to reflect upon his past deeds and see where he went wrong. The world is full of these stories - elderly people in end-of-life care, realizing that they spent too much time earning money and too little playing with their kids.

This is not entirely viable in Boromir's case since he repented already before he knew he was dying; still, it was not until he was dying that he fully confessed what he had done and said he was sorry. When he returned to the rest of the Fellowship after his encounter with Frodo, he did not tell them what he had tried to do. It was only when he was dying that he let go of his pride (for that is what I suppose it was) and confessed. The same is essentially true with Thórin as well - letting go of his pride only at the very end, because maybe, for these proud heroes, it takes the approach of death to realize and to admit that they got it wrong after all.