New interview with Christopher Tolkien

[William Cloud Hicklin]

OK, my gut willingly stands corrected: OE ecg absolutely has the soft g, and so my categorical exclusion is simply wrong.

Perhaps I was misrecalling the suggestion that [dʒ] for "J", specifically, was a French import.




Of course, JRRT also moved a bit between theory and practice himself: in his recordings he invariably pronounces the final consonant of Gandalf [f] while himself averring that in 'proper' Norse it would be [v].

[jallanite]

Searching though websites and library books has convinced me that most authors just don’t bother to cover ng, but that those who do all give the two values of [ŋɡ] when the g has the hard sound and [ndʒ] when the g has the soft sound, and everyone seems to agree that Old English cg is to be pronounced [dʒ].

See http://www.wmich.edu/medieval/resour...unciation.html which in I have already linked to and which covers the entire book Introduction to Old English by Peter S. Baker (Malden, MA: Blackwell Publishing, 2003). There were about four copies on the shelves, which is an unusual number of copies of the same book for the main branch of the University of Toronto Library.

Then there is http://www.omniglot.com/writing/oldenglish.htm which is the Omniglot site of Old English/Anglo-Saxon.

Last is http://weofodthignen.livejournal.com/158550.html which says:

Although g after n is usually sounded g, occasionally (e.g. sprengan, ancestor of "spring") it is instead j as in "edge," but shorter than in cg words.

None of this indicates how this is thought to be known, but perhaps that is because it is too obvious. Middle-English generally adopted the same spelling system as Old English, but simplified and modified it to mostly follow the Norman French spelling system. In particular the early Middle-English writers had introduced the French version of the letter g, but also kept as a letter of the alphabet a descendant of the Old English version of the alphabet. This letter is now usually known as yogh and was written something like Ȝ/ȝ. (You may not be able to see it here if you have an old computer, in which case you can see from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogh what it sometimes looked like.)

Middle-English writers generally used the letter gee (G/g) to transcribe the sounds of gee as it existed in Norman French. The French letter G/g is believed to have then had two sounds, a hard sound [g] like the hard sound of G/g in Modern French and English and Old English as well as a soft sound [dʒ] heard in Modern English and Old French but seldom if at all in Old English. The ḟormer Old French [dʒ] has since softened still further and is now [ʒ].

Middle-English writers generally used the letter yogh (Ȝ/ȝ) to transcribe the sounds of Middle-English gee which were assigned to gee in Old English but differed from the French sounds, namely [j] (the sound used in Modern English for consonantal Y) and [ɣ] which is a sound that has since become lost in English or is fronted to [f] but is now sometimes spelled as gh, for example in tough, though, cough, draught, laugh, straight, tough, plough, thorough, and in other words.

In short, the linguists are assuming that if an early Middle-English scribe is using the letter G/g rather than Ȝ/ȝ, it must be because the sound to be represented is either [g] or [dʒ]. Therefore the Old English values must have been the same or very close to one of these choices. So when the scribes put down G/g and not Ȝ/ȝ, cg must have been pronounced as [dʒ] and Old English ng, if not to be pronounced as [ŋɡ], must be pronounced as [ndʒ].

However the closest I have come to finding verification of this theory is from Henry Sweet’s famous book A History of English Sounds (Oxford at the Clarendon Press, Oxford: 1888). Sweet uses Bell’s Visible Speech characters which cannot be reproduced over the web. I have replaced them by approximate IPA values in curly braces, although in this case the values don’t make sense to me and I believe they may be in error. On page 196 Sweet writes:

744. OE ġ becomes ȝ everywhere in ME, except in the combination nġ and nċ, where {ɲɟ, ɟɟ} gradually developed into their present sound of (nʒ, dʒ) as in senġen, briġġe MnE (sinʒ, bridʒ) = OE sęnġan, bryċġ.

In short, if Thengel has a soft g then Christopher Tolkien’s pronunciation as Then[dʒ]el is a correct one according to current standards. I have found two modern listings which contain the noun þengel and present it as þenǵel, here using an acute accent to mark the soft sound. One of the volumes was J. B. Passenger’s A Short Dictionary of Anglo-Saxon Poetry: In normalized Early West-Saxon (University of Toronto, Toronto: 1962). My notes are not in order on the other book, but I recall that it was in German.

However at least some earlier sources indicate the hard sound for þengel. See http://www.bosworthtoller.com/031660 for the page on þengel from Bosworth-Toller’s Anglo-Saxon Dictionary of 1898. According to the pronunciation guide at the centre top of the page the word is pronounced /θeŋɣel/. I cannot account for the vowel /ɣ/ but at least this is closer to J. R. R. Tolkien’s pronunciation. It suggests that the pronunciation provided by J. R. R. Tolkien was not simply an inexplicable error.

There the matter stands at the moment. Possibly some newer discussion has indicated that the g in Thengel had a soft sound or possibly this is a matter which is still in common debate.

Note, in many hard fonts in use in the 20th century the yogh symbol appeared in a from identical or almost identical to ʒ. Indeed it was often thought they were simply different forms to the same symbol. This was incorrect and in Unicode ȝ is usually now clearly distinguished from ʒ in fonts. Yogh sometimes appears in the HoME series and there it appears in a form indistinguishable from ʒ.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Of course, JRRT also moved a bit between theory and practice himself: in his recordings he invariably pronounces the final consonant of Gandalf [f] while himself averring that in 'proper' Norse it would be [v].

Tolkien nowhere mentions ″proper Norse”. In Appendix E I Tolkien writes:

F represents f, except in at the end of words, where it is used to represent the sound of v (as in English of): Nindalf, Fladrif.

But this is an account of the pronunciation of the Quenya and Sindarin Elvish tongues, except in a few cases where Tolkien thinks fit to explicitly bring in one of the other languages. The discussion begins with Tolkien stating:

The Westron or Common Speech has been entirely translated into English equivalents. All Hobbit names and special words are intended to be pronounced accordingly: for example Bolger has g as in bulge, and mathom rhymes with fathom.

In Appendix F I Of Other Races – Dwarves, Tolkien writes:

Gimli’s own name, however, and the names of all of his kin, are of Northern (Mannish) origin. Their own secret and ‘inner’ names, their true names, the Dwarves have never revealed to anyone of alien race. Not even on their tombs do they inscribe them.

The name Gandalf is to be understood as one of these Northern names which Tolkien has substituted for the real Northern names, just as he supposedly substituted Old English names of the real Rohirric names, and invented Hobbit names to replace real their real names. These supposedly substitute Dwarvan names are taken from the Norse Eddas and some of them are somewhat Anglicized. Notably the name Dwalin in the Old Norse sources is Dvalin.

All these Northern names are to be understood as English-related substitutes for the the real names of the persons mentioned. In his essay on the Istari in Unfinished Tales Tolkien writes:

Gandalf is a substitution in the English narrative on the same lines as the treatment of Hobbit and Dwarf names. It is an actual Norse name (found applied to a Dwarf in Völuspá) used by me since it appears to contain gandr, a staff, especially one used in ‘magic’, and might be understood to mean ‘Elvish wight with a (magic) staff’. Gandalf was not an Elf, but would be by Men be associated with them, since his alliance and friendship with Elves was well-known. Since the name is attributed to ‘the North’ in general, Gandalf must be supposed to represent a Westron name, but one made up of elements not derived from Elvish tongues.

In short, Gandalf was never considered by Tolkien when he wrote the bit about f at the end of names, nor should he have been. Like the Dwarves he bears a name understood to be adapted to Weston both in the original imagined tale and in the English translation.

[Galin]

The Appendices also note...

The 'outer' or Mannish names of the Dwarves have been given Northern forms, but the letter-values are those described.

And 'those described' would appear to point back to what was said about F, indicating a final -v sound in Gandalf as in Old Norse (if one assumes the name Gandalf is to be included here anyway).

Yet...

The still more northerly language of Dale is in this book seen only in the names of the Dwarves that came from that region and so used the language of the Men there, taking their 'outer' names in that tongue.

Here 'only' is interesting. While Gandalf as representing a Westronized form makes some sense to me, in my opinion technically the account in Unfinished Tales refers to the name as representing Westron, attributed to the North 'in general'.

Still leaving Gandalf with a final -f sound.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Galin

And 'those described' would appear to point back to what was said about F, indicating a final -v sound in Gandalf as in Old Norse (if one assumes the name Gandalf is to be included here anyway).

I am not “assuming”. Gandalf is a name found in Old Norse and made of Old Norse elements. The same is true for Forn which is applied to Tom Bombadil, although it is not found in the Eddas.

I agree that the sentence you cite seems to mean that Tolkien’s rules about F should apply to the name Gandalf. However, as you point out, Tolkien elsewhere says that “Gandalf must be supposed to represent a Westron name”. Yet Tolkien elsewhere indicates that Westron represents English and Gandalf is not an English name.

Tolkien is not always perfectly consistent. The tie-breaker is that Tolkien’s own pronunciation of Gandalf with the last letter pronounced f indicates what Tolkien intended despite places where, if Tolkien’s words are pressed to the full, that is not what he is saying.

Gandalf, I see, as Tolkien’s representation of an Old Norse name in English and slightly Anglicized.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

In short, Gandalf was never considered by Tolkien when he wrote the bit about f at the end of names, nor should he have been. Like the Dwarves he bears a name understood to be adapted to Weston both in the original imagined tale and in the English translation.

Why do you persist in ascribing to me statements I've never made and opinions I've never advanced? OF COURSE the bit on terminal F in App F refers to the Elvish tongues.

"Adapted to Westron" is all well and good- except that Westron nowhere appears in the book (save a couple of "actual" hobbit-names presented in App F); the CS is feigned to have been turned into English.

However, Gandalf is not an English name, not even an Old English name. Tolkien is just being inconsistent (or nonrigorous). He could after all make mistakes! Just recall the self-created mess he had to dig himself out of regarding Thror-Thrain.

--------------------------


Just perhaps related -although I have no idea what JRRT's scholarly opinion was on the matter - might be the theory that in at least some regional OE pronunciations no distinction was made between voiced and unvoiced fricatives: [s] and [z], [f] and [v] were interchangeable (think of the slightly but not wholly stagey "Zummerzet" accent)

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

In short, Gandalf was never considered by Tolkien when he wrote the bit about f at the end of names, nor should he have been. Like the Dwarves he bears a name understood to be adapted to Weston both in the original imagined tale and in the English translation.

Why do you persist in ascribing to me statements I've never made and opinions I've never advanced? OF COURSE the bit on terminal F in App F refers to the Elvish tongues.

The statement you give is at the end of http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...827#post674827 and is my own statement and not ascribed to you. It appeared to me that I was answering what I felt you meant. Sorry if I misrepresented you.

What you did say at http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...778#post674778 was:

Of course, JRRT also moved a bit between theory and practice himself: in his recordings he invariably pronounces the final consonant of Gandalf [f] while himself averring that in 'proper' Norse it would be [v].

As far as I can determine Tolkien never said that in ‘proper’ Norse it would be [v], though the statement itself would usually be considered to be quite correct. If Tokien did say what you say, exactly as you have cited it, that statement does not indicate that Tolkien ever pronounced his name Gandalf with the Norse [v], therefore there is no inconsistency.

"Adapted to Westron" is all well and good- except that Westron nowhere appears in the book (save a couple of "actual" hobbit-names presented in App F); the CS is feigned to have been turned into English.

"Westron nowhere appears in the book (save a couple of "actual" hobbit-names presented in App F”? Tolkien first mentions Westron in his Prologue where he writes:

And in those days also they forgot whatever languages they had used before, and spoke ever after the Common Speech, the Westron as it was named, …

It appears at various other places in the Appendices other than the place you mention. I agree that Westron or the Common Speech “is feigned to have been turned into English”.

However, Gandalf is not an English name, not even an Old English name. Tolkien is just being inconsistent (or nonrigorous).

Correct. I like your use of the word nonrigorous in referring to Westron where he ought to have said something like “name from a language related to Westron” instead of “Westron name”.

He could after all make mistakes! Just recall the self-created mess he had to dig himself out of regarding Thror-Thrain.

I have never denied that. I do question that Tolkien wrote that in ‘proper’ Norse f would be pronounced [v] and wrote anything that suggested that readers of his book ought to pronounce Gandalf as though if ended in [v], other than in the statement that Galin dug up which I also consider to be non-rigorous usage. Tolkien would have meant, “… but the letter values would have been approximately those described.”

Just perhaps related -although I have no idea what JRRT's scholarly opinion was on the matter - might be the theory that in at least some regional OE pronunciations no distinction was made between voiced and unvoiced fricatives: [s] and [z], [f] and [v] were interchangeable (think of the slightly but not wholly stagey "Zummerzet" accent)

Please cite your source.

General theory is that [s] and [z] were both normally spelled S/ſ/s, that [f] and [v] were both spelled F/f, and that [θ] and [ð] were normally both spelled either Þ/þ or Ð/ð. I do not remember ever encountering the idea that there was an Old English dialect that made no distinction between the two sound values of each of the letters. Pronunciation guides, so far as I have read, carefully distinguish when one of these letters should have the unvoiced pronunciation and when they should have the voiced pronunciation.

Psychologically the speakers of Old English likely tended to be mostly unaware that these letters had two pronunciations, just as many Modern English speakers are unaware that the letter combination th has two common pronunciations heard in thin [θɪn], breath [brɛθ] and then [ðɛn], breathe [briːð], but still pronounce them differently. That the two sounds of each letter were usually related would have inclined them not to notice the difference. Similarly many speakers of modern English do not notice that the pluralizing -s is sometimes pronounced [s] and sometimes pronounced [z] but still differentiate the sounds. Both [bɛtz] and [bɛds] would sound wrong for bets and beds respectively.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Jallanite

However at least some earlier sources indicate the hard sound for þengel. See http://www.bosworthtoller.com/031660 for the page on þengel from Bosworth-Toller’s Anglo-Saxon Dictionary of 1898. According to the pronunciation guide at the centre top of the page the word is pronounced /θeŋɣel/. I cannot account for the vowel /ɣ/ but at least this is closer to J. R. R. Tolkien’s pronunciation. It suggests that the pronunciation provided by J. R. R. Tolkien was not simply an inexplicable error.

For what it's worth, I don't think the pronunciations given in the online Bosworth and Toller are all that reliable. Note the little asterisk that, when hovered over, says that the pronunciation is an experimental feature. I expect it is generated automatically by a computer program for each word.

I noticed this the other day when I saw that the spelling variants 'gyld' and 'gild' gave different pronunciations for the initial 'g' (apparently, /ɣ/ is assigned when the 'g' is followed by 'y' and /j/ when it's followed by 'i', which is perhaps a decent rule of thumb but by no means universally true). And for some reason, /ɣ/ seems to appear in all the places one would expect /g/, which would explain the strangeness with /θeŋɣel/.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

For what it's worth, I don't think the pronunciations given in the online Bosworth and Toller are all that reliable. Note the little asterisk that, when hovered over, says that the pronunciation is an experimental feature. I expect it is generated automatically by a computer program for each word.

Thanks for pointing that out. Then the electronic version of the dictionary gives no evidence for the correctness of J. R. R. Tolkien’s pronunciation of Thengel.

I note that both the online and printed Peter S. Baker Introduction to Old English gives the word þengel with a soft g (þenġel). See http://www.wmich.edu/medieval/resour...E/postyle.html . I have come to the conclusion that Christopher Tolkien’s pronunciation The[ndʒ]el is the commonly accepted pronunciation of the word.

Why J. R. R. Tolkien’s pronunciation differs I do not know. Possibly it was the standard pronunciation in an earlier era. Possibly J. R. R. Tolkien had a different theory. Possibly even today the pronunciation the[ndʒ]el over the[ŋɡ]el is still not really proved. Perhaps some day I will stumble across the article which explains the deduction.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"Westron nowhere appears in the book (save a couple of "actual" hobbit-names presented in App F”? Tolkien first mentions Westron in his Prologue where he writes:
And in those days also they forgot whatever languages they had used before, and spoke ever after the Common Speech, the Westron as it was named, …
It appears at various other places in the Appendices other than the place you mention. I agree that Westron or the Common Speech “is feigned to have been turned into English”.

What I was saying was that examples of actual Westron nowhere appear but in those names, not mentions of the Common Speech or Westron as a language.