The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-10-2012, 12:57 PM   #1
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
Spectre of Decay
 
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bar-en-Danwedh
Posts: 2,178
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via AIM to The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
Pipe Tolkien the Francophobe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bêthberry
Thanks for the analysis, Mith. I've always thought it a bit ironic that Tolkien's son moved to France, given Tolkien Sr.'s thoughts about the French.
Since you said this, of course, we've been fortunate enough to see Verlyn Flieger's talk at Return of the Ring, which calls into question that very aspect of Tolkien Senior's personality. I've been meaning ever since to start a thread to discuss my thoughts on that issue, but for now just a quick thought.

I haven't consulted my library yet, but it seems to me that the only aspects of French culture to which JRRT expressed any antipathy were specifically those which have been imposed on the English, either by the Normans (Woden's curse be upon them) or the aptly French-named bourgeoisie (in other words, precisely those people represented by the Sackville-Bagginses). It's easy to see how a product of industrial, no-nonsense Birmingham society might well heap a certain amount of disdain on the gratuitous and unnecessary use of French where a perfectly adequate English term exists, or the unjustifiable privilege given to French culture among the would-be arbiters of taste in this country. It's possible that Humphrey Carpenter overstated the case a little or misinterpreted what he discovered. In any case, I think CRT has earned the right to be cut a little slack by his father's ghost, having got such a hard time about military aircraft when he joined the R.A.F. I'm afraid I can't agree with JRRT about Spitfires.
__________________
Man kenuva métim' andúne?
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 12:03 PM   #2
William Cloud Hicklin
Loremaster of Annúminas
 
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,330
William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh View Post
I think CRT has earned the right to be cut a little slack by his father's ghost, having got such a hard time about military aircraft when he joined the R.A.F. I'm afraid I can't agree with JRRT about Spitfires.
I don't believe CT ever flew Spits. He did his primary training in Tiger Moths and his advanced training in Harvards, then transferred to the RN- I don't know what he flew in the FAA or whether he reached an operational squadron before demob, but I know he never qualled or flew off carriers, which rules out Seafires.
__________________
The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 01:07 PM   #3
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
Spectre of Decay
 
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bar-en-Danwedh
Posts: 2,178
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via AIM to The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
Pipe

Being a bit of a plane buff, that information interests me a lot. It's a standard progression for mid-1940s pilot training, but interesting nonetheless.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. I wasn't suggesting that CRT flew Spitfires; I was just selecting the type that's my personal point of departure from JRRT's comments in Letters #100. I had no knowledge of CRT's military service beyond the very basics until I read your post just now.
__________________
Man kenuva métim' andúne?
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 01:15 PM   #4
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin View Post
I don't believe CT ever flew Spits. He did his primary training in Tiger Moths and his advanced training in Harvards, then transferred to the RN- I don't know what he flew in the FAA or whether he reached an operational squadron before demob, but I know he never qualled or flew off carriers, which rules out Seafires.
Hurricanes might be a good possibility as well.
I know this is a bit far afield of this thread, but WWII aviation is an interest of mine too.

I always wondered if combat aviation might not have been in the back of JRRT's mind when he wrote of battles between Eagles and Dragons, and aerial elements strafing the ground, like Smaug did to Lake-town.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 11:00 AM   #5
William Cloud Hicklin
Loremaster of Annúminas
 
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,330
William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
CT began his training at No. 7 Air School (Tiger Moths), Kroonstad, Free State; after completing Elementary Flying Training there he moved on to No. 25 AS (Harvards) at Standerton, Transvaal for Service Flying Training.

Upon graduation and commissioning in March 1945 he was sent back to England, and subsequently was transferred to the FAA; I don't know why but if I had to guess it would be because with the surrender of Germany there was a perceived greater need for RN pilots vs. Japan. By this time in the war the RN was operating few British-built aircraft; aside from the Barracuda and a small number of Seafires most of its TOE was made up of USN types (Martlet/Wildcat, Hellcat, Corsair, Avenger etc).
__________________
The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2012, 05:55 PM   #6
leapofberen
Pile O'Bones
 
leapofberen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 14
leapofberen has just left Hobbiton.
Thank you CJRT

I thank God for Christopher Tolkien. Here is a man who has spent the rest of his life finishing his father's work...how rare is that in this day and age? And if he had not spent years being about his father's work, I would not have enjoyed or benefited from those works, especially The Silmarillion. He is an honorable man, and it warms my soul to know that there are folk like him out there.

I do not find it surprising that Christopher and the Tolkien Estate are opposed to the commercialization and circus surrounding the Jackson movies. I would expect that after having read the Professor's writings and letters. Not surprising at all!

I do not think it is fair or right to throw Christopher under the bus for asking for a cut of the profits that came from the adaptations of his father's work; I would. JRRT was his FATHER after all. If it pains him as much as we have heard to see his father's work handled in such a way, then this would be some small redemption. More importantly, I do not believe it was about the money for Christopher (his history should prove that!) but rather about honoring his father in some way. In fact, it would be better if the people handling the adaptations, the movie studios, etc, would have chosen to honor the Tolkien estate by giving them their cut in the first place.

It only goes to show, no matter how much one loves or hates the movies, that the folks who were behind making them (I am not speaking of Jackson here) are only in it as deep as the money goes. I know that even Peter Jackson struggled to create the adaptations that he did! I understand the way Christopher feels. I also understand that it all could have been much worse if someone other than Jackson had made the adaptations...much worse.

Well, much of this is tragic, and I too am somewhat grieved to think that Tolkien's work could be so readily exposed to dilution or depravity if it were not for his children and his estate. Thank God for Christopher Tolkien and his work, his perseverance and the preservation of his father's legacy; and much more then that: rather, the preservation and telling of stories of which JRR Tolkien says, "I always had the sense of recording what was already 'there', somewhere..."

May we all learn to get caught up in the Larger Story. Thank you JRRT and CJRT.

Last edited by leapofberen; 09-16-2012 at 06:00 PM. Reason: clarification between CJRT and JRRT
leapofberen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2012, 11:00 AM   #7
William Cloud Hicklin
Loremaster of Annúminas
 
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,330
William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leapofberen View Post
I thank God for Christopher Tolkien. Here is a man who has spent the rest of his life finishing his father's work...how rare is that in this day and age? And if he had not spent years being about his father's work, I would not have enjoyed or benefited from those works, especially The Silmarillion. He is an honorable man, and it warms my soul to know that there are folk like him out there.

I do not find it surprising that Christopher and the Tolkien Estate are opposed to the commercialization and circus surrounding the Jackson movies. I would expect that after having read the Professor's writings and letters. Not surprising at all!

I do not think it is fair or right to throw Christopher under the bus for asking for a cut of the profits that came from the adaptations of his father's work; I would. JRRT was his FATHER after all. If it pains him as much as we have heard to see his father's work handled in such a way, then this would be some small redemption. More importantly, I do not believe it was about the money for Christopher (his history should prove that!) but rather about honoring his father in some way. In fact, it would be better if the people handling the adaptations, the movie studios, etc, would have chosen to honor the Tolkien estate by giving them their cut in the first place.

It only goes to show, no matter how much one loves or hates the movies, that the folks who were behind making them (I am not speaking of Jackson here) are only in it as deep as the money goes. I know that even Peter Jackson struggled to create the adaptations that he did! I understand the way Christopher feels. I also understand that it all could have been much worse if someone other than Jackson had made the adaptations...much worse.

Well, much of this is tragic, and I too am somewhat grieved to think that Tolkien's work could be so readily exposed to dilution or depravity if it were not for his children and his estate. Thank God for Christopher Tolkien and his work, his perseverance and the preservation of his father's legacy; and much more then that: rather, the preservation and telling of stories of which JRR Tolkien says, "I always had the sense of recording what was already 'there', somewhere..."

May we all learn to get caught up in the Larger Story. Thank you JRRT and CJRT.

I think CT is in something of the position as the son of a great and legendary chef, who has lived to see his father's name slapped on a chain of wildly successful burger joints.... and is then foully pilloried for not endorsing fast food.


(CT incidentally is a *very* nice man, and has a hysterically funny dry wit. He is no hermit, and is fact quite social, but doesn't like crowds or publicity.)
__________________
The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:08 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.