A question about advancements of weaponry

[Rumil]

Another aspect (in story if you like) is that the elves appear to have gone directly to the iron age without having to do all that inconvenient mucking about with a bronze age. IIRC the Valar passed on some tips.

Bronze swords are basically a pain, lack of tensile strength etc, they were made in our history, but were no match for basic iron swords, let alone well-forged steel. Humans have been using other weapons eg spears for far longer, simple pointy-stick ones for as much as 500,000 years allegedly and stone-tipped for at least 200,000. Whether for hunting or warfare is an open question.

So in a way the inhabitants of Middle Earth are ahead of the curve instead of behind it.

As said there's much evidence of gunpowder (whether Gandalf's fireworks and flash-bang in the goblin cave or the fires of Orthanc). Also incendiary weapons, something like Greek fire - probably naptha-based - Sauron's projectiles at the siege of Minas Tirith that kindled by some nameless art and Saruman's flame projector that burnt up an ent. Debateable how much of each is 'magic' or pyrotechnics, but to be fair most medieval observers found it tricky to distinguish between the two.

The alchemists and early gunners and 'fireworkers' were often viewed supiciously as being in league with evil forces, the whiff of sulphur probably not helping their case!

[cellurdur]

Middle Earth is fortunate that the most advanced scientific minds were also the greatest humanitarians. When we look at the craft of Numenor, there is no doubt they are highly advanced. Orthanc or Minas Tirith are clear examples of this.

As others have mentioned the elves would always hold back from using their skills to create weapons of mass destruction. Even when led astray by Sauron, the three rings they constructed are still not to be used as weapons.

The same goes for Numenor. At their height, they cared only for peaceful pursuits. Like the elves even with great advancements in technology, the Faithful would not support the evil weapons of mass destruction.

That said Ar-pharazon's army was probably the most advanced in terms of weaponry. With their complete destruction this would set things back.

[Galadriel55]

cellurdur's mention of the Numenorian kingdoms made me think of a link between power, height of glory, and weapons. The height, really, is only achieved when technological pursiuts are balanced with the underlying good will behind them. When that backdrop fades away, technology (and weapons...) grows stronger, and so does the physical power of the kingdom (perhaps), but it's not in fool bloom anymore. I would not call it the height.

So if you are trying to create weapons of mass destruction, you are definitely losing track of your purpose, if you have not lost it already.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

cellurdur's mention of the Numenorian kingdoms made me think of a link between power, height of glory, and weapons. The height, really, is only achieved when technological pursiuts are balanced with the underlying good will behind them. When that backdrop fades away, technology (and weapons...) grows stronger, and so does the physical power of the kingdom (perhaps), but it's not in fool bloom anymore. I would not call it the height.

So if you are trying to create weapons of mass destruction, you are definitely losing track of your purpose, if you have not lost it already.

That is why I said at their height they were only concerned with peaceful endeavors.

I too agree that under Ar-pharazon they were at their most technologically advanced and powerful, but when you are burning people on altars to Morgoth, it can hardly be called the height of your civilisation.

[Inziladun]

As technologically advanced as Númenor was in Pharazôn's time, I don't see them having any sort of WMD capability. After all, some of the King's Men escaped the Downfall, becoming the enemies of Gondor. If that sort of technology had been available, surely they'd have used it against Gondor at some point?

Speaking of WMDs in Middle-earth, Sauron apparently used bioterror weapons in the Third Age. Good thing he didn't pass that along to the Easterlings or Southrons.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

As technologically advanced as Númenor was in Pharazôn's time, I don't see them having any sort of WMD capability. After all, some of the King's Men escaped the Downfall, becoming the enemies of Gondor. If that sort of technology had been available, surely they'd have used it against Gondor at some point?

I am not talking about Atomic weapons and napalm bombs. I am talking about dynamite and primitive guns.

I think that the greatest of the kings men would be at the invasion. It was said to be the greatest armada that had been seen. If they did have any secret weapons then it would have been kept at Numenor to be used for this invasion.

Speaking of WMDs in Middle-earth, Sauron apparently used bioterror weapons in the Third Age. Good thing he didn't pass that along to the Easterlings or Southrons.

Biological weapons have been used for thousands of years, when it was just throwing dead cattle into the enemy battlements.

What Sauron did is probably breed some from of disease or easier still just transport a disease that had already been found in the south or east.

[Galadriel55]

Is it possible that in Pharazon's time gunpowder was, actually, legitimately, not invented yet? I mean, not invented at all? Are there references to it before Saruman's and Sauron's late Third Age battles?

As for the plagues, they could have just been plagues. Imagine living next-door to a place as filthy as Mordor or Angband. Every once in a while, epecially with Morgoth's/Sauron's guiding hand, some epidemic is bound to errupt. I do believe they have had a part to play in it by guiding/directing/enforcing it, but they did not have to overtax themselves with conjuring diseases.

[Elemmakil]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Bronze swords are basically a pain, lack of tensile strength etc, they were made in our history, but were no match for basic iron swords, let alone well-forged steel.

Categorically untrue. Plain or wrought iron is actually softer than a good 90/10 tin bronze. Iron came into ascendence because it is much more available and thus cheaper than bronze, which requires two much rarer relatively speaking metals (copper and tin) that are generally not found in close proximity together and, in addition to their scarcity, also require extensive and sometimes long range trade networks to bring together.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Insiladun has a key point here:

With the Istari gone, Elves dwindling and having over time less and less contact with the kingdoms of Men, it doesn't seem much of a stretch that over time the moral equation of impersonal technology designed to kill great numbers with "Morgothian" behavior would have fallen by the wayside. With that blockage gone, and always new enemies (of other Men), the motivation would have been there.

In Tolkien's Middle-earth universe men and mannish related peoples seem more easily corrupted then elves and dwarves. With the Istari also gone and the valar increasingly only indirectly montoring things you have people (including hobbits) more susceptible---see ted Sandyman and the shirreefs (a minority) who rather liked lording it over other hobbits, and the way men like Grima and the Dunlendings (and ewasterlings and Southrons by Sauron) were susceptible to dominant personalities and technological "improvements."