The Barrow Cache, with speculation on the Reason for the WK sending

[Juicy-Sweet]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

The previous thread (on the wights) has led me to think

I wonder if beyond the reasons mentioned there might have been another reason why the WK sent the wights to occupy the barrows. As we find out later, the barrow blades given how they were made and forged are uniquely powerful against the hosts of Mordor unlike most weapons Barrow blades can hurt the WK, a trait that given his boast of being unhinderable (which I interpet as meant not just unkillable, but also unwoundable). Given that fact that the WK had fought the Cardolan is is possible he knew just how effective thier weaponry was against him and his wraith Bretheren. I wonder if beyond their obvios function of blocking the way and increasing the general amount of terror in the area, the wights had another function namely to guard the barrows and make sure that no one did what Tom eventually in his own way, did, exume the weapons and pass them to people in a postion to use them. We know how effective the knives of the barrow are, we can only imagine what other anti-Nazgul tech lay down there (this specualtion may not be as idle as it first sounds, since I have always belived that, if Tolkien HAD written the LOTR sequel, the question of the barrow weapons might have been of supreme importance, since in the absence of the eleven rings and the Wise who wielded them, weponry like the Barrow Blades might have represented the strongest anti Mordor stuff there was .

I like this idea.

In Unfinished Tales, the WK makes a detour around the barrows "stirring" the wights or something.

I sorta wondered why he botheres with that - in the middle of the ring chase but it makes sense now, seing the witches are guarding the some of best anti-nazgul weaponry. He wen to check if all was well with the wights and to raise their morale. Pat them on the back saying "You know, it's an awfully important job you've done in this barrow for the last couple of thousand years, I really dont know how we would have done it without you. Keep up the good work, and see you in 1000 years."

I think the WK - or anyone - was not be SURE as to what kind of stuff was really in the barrows. Theres a lot of them, and it would take forever to search the all. And theres no inventories.

It makes sense to me he was thinking originally "well ... there MIGHT be some anti-nazgul weapons in the barrows, and there might not. I dont really think so - so I'm not going to bother clearing them all out. But just to make sure, I'll send the wights that I dont have much other use for and guard them. They are the only ones up for the job as well, seing that a) they dont die, so I can stick a wight in each barrow and it will be safe forever, whereas orcs might die from a plague or whatever 1000 years come b) they are pretty much the only servants that can be trusted with guarding gold and such without superveilance. One day when the territory is under my control again - and it has to be - I'll come and clear them all." But he never controlled the territory.

The good side on its side would be thinking (I'm guessing that only the high-power people, Gandalf, Elrond etc would be able to clear out a wight, and that it was pretty difficult even for them. Tom Bombadil is in a league of his own, so his performance doesnt count.) - "Well, there MIGHT be a barrow blade or two in there - we don't know. But it would be awfully taxing to clear all the 393 barrows and fight a wight 393 times - and then probably just end up with golden brooches and useless stuff. It's not worth the bother. And hey, I'm a grand hero. It's just not fitting for me to camp in the barrows for years doing the tedious and repetitive task of clearing our barrow after barrow after barrow..."

I dont think Elrond or Gandalf likes doing the exact same thing 393 times in a row.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Juicy-Sweet

The good side on its side would be thinking (I'm guessing that only the high-power people, Gandalf, Elrond etc would be able to clear out a wight, and that it was pretty difficult even for them. Tom Bombadil is in a league of his own, so his performance doesnt count.) - "Well, there MIGHT be a barrow blade or two in there - we don't know. But it would be awfully taxing to clear all the 393 barrows and fight a wight 393 times - and then probably just end up with golden brooches and useless stuff. It's not worth the bother. And hey, I'm a grand hero. It's just not fitting for me to camp in the barrows for years doing the tedious and repetitive task of clearing our barrow after barrow after barrow..."

I dont think Elrond or Gandalf likes doing the exact same thing 393 times in a row.

Actually, that might not be the case. Killing a Barrow-Wight is actually quite easy, provided you know it is there. A wight is deadly when you are in its barrow and under it's spell. However they do have one huge weakness, daylight. Daylight hits them, they dissolve into mist (this is basically what Tom did when he broke open the Barrows, he let the light in and killed the wight in each barrow he opened. The Hobbits got in trouble in no small parts because they were hobbits; untrained, unaware of the nature of the danger, and still not experienced enough to take appropriate care. In contrast a group of individuals who went there KNOWING was was wating for them might have a very different story. They could wait for a sunny day (the wights may have trouble calling up the fog if condtions aren't already inclined to be misty. Or if they are elves, who are good at seeing by very little light, fog may not impair them as much as hobbits) Instead of trying to enter each barrow and deal with the wight mano-a-mano you simply dig in from the top and let the light in, the light hits the wight dissolves and the barrows contents are free for the taking. Dealing with 393 wights one on one would indeed take years, having a small group chop holes in the top of each one, would only take a few weeks, possibly only a few days, depending on how fast you can dig (Tom did one in a few hours singlehandedly)
I think the real reason the good guys never did it is it never ocurred to them. As you intimated they might not have considered the possilbity of there possibly being a few weapons in the barrows worth the effort. This would go doubly for the elves, who might consider the weapons of little significance (they are not men (nor, technically is Gandalf) and so might not fall under the WK's purview, and hence need no "extra edge").
I still think it likey that the rest of the Barrows were eventually exumed, probably by former Rangers under Now crowned Aragorn's orders as part of some sort of "make sure that, should we get into a situation similar to what we have just gone through, we have every advantage on our side" plan (similar to my "someone must have had to take care of Shelob before hunger drove her out of the pass" problem) in the post war it may actually have been a no danger job, the wights may have all dissapeared anyway (if the nazgul all dropped dead when there was no more master ring/sauron to keep them going, then it is possible that, when the WK died, the wights, being his summonings also were unable to mantain existence on this plane and dissapeared. By the time Aragorn ascends the throne, the barrows may already be wight free.)
One final note, I'm not sure the brooches would neccecarily be all that useless. A culture who could weave spells into thier blades that would make them extra effective agaisnt Nazgul might have a few tricks they could work into cloak holds and things like that. Maybe a spell that provided protection against a wraiths ability to inspire fear.

[Juicy-Sweet]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Actually, that might not be the case. Killing a Barrow-Wight is actually quite easy, provided you know it is there. A wight is deadly when you are in its barrow and under it's spell. However they do have one huge weakness, daylight. Daylight hits them, they dissolve into mist (this is basically what Tom did when he broke open the Barrows, he let the light in and killed the wight in each barrow he opened. The Hobbits got in trouble in no small parts because they were hobbits; untrained, unaware of the nature of the danger, and still not experienced enough to take appropriate care. In contrast a group of individuals who went there KNOWING was was wating for them might have a very different story. They could wait for a sunny day (the wights may have trouble calling up the fog if condtions aren't already inclined to be misty. Or if they are elves, who are good at seeing by very little light, fog may not impair them as much as hobbits) Instead of trying to enter each barrow and deal with the wight mano-a-mano you simply dig in from the top and let the light in, the light hits the wight dissolves and the barrows contents are free for the taking. Dealing with 393 wights one on one would indeed take years, having a small group chop holes in the top of each one, would only take a few weeks, possibly only a few days, depending on how fast you can dig (Tom did one in a few hours singlehandedly) .

I'm not convinced they are "easy". Not sure if theres any mention in LOTR or elsewhere about the strength of a barrow wight. I've got no idea how the wight defends itself - but I think if it was as easy as digging a whole on a sunny day, they would have been empty long ago. The book gives me no clear idea at all of what they can and cant do. I don't think normal people can open a barrow with a wight inside. I think they would use the sleep spell on anyone trying to dig and then kill them in the night. Or use the LOST iN THE FOG spell to make them loose their way.

I dont know this ... just deduce from the fact that everyone left them alone for centuries that they are quite dangerous.

If say a dwarf could kill one, they would have for sure, for the gold.

I like your thinking though I guess both options are possible that

a) they are so strong that only the really big good guys can kill them, but its two low priority for them
b) anyone with a shovel can kill them, but nobody knows so people leave them alone

I still think it likey that the rest of the Barrows were eventually exumed, probably by former Rangers under Now crowned Aragorn's orders as part of some sort of "make sure that, should we get into a situation similar to what we have just gone through, we have every advantage on our side"

That makes sense... also for Shelob, since ex-Mordor would become the New Gondor. And when Cirith Ungol got transformed into a historic tourist attraction, they would want to remove Shelob. Who they probably put in Minas Ithil Zoo

One final note, I'm not sure the brooches would neccecarily be all that useless. A culture who could weave spells into thier blades that would make them extra effective agaisnt Nazgul might have a few tricks they could work into cloak holds and things like that. Maybe a spell that provided protection against a wraiths ability to inspire fear

Yeah, there must be all sorts of stuff in those barrows.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Juicy-Sweet

I'm not convinced they are "easy". Not sure if theres any mention in LOTR or elsewhere about the strength of a barrow wight. I've got no idea how the wight defends itself - but I think if it was as easy as digging a whole on a sunny day, they would have been empty long ago. The book gives me no clear idea at all of what they can and cant do. I don't think normal people can open a barrow with a wight inside. I think they would use the sleep spell on anyone trying to dig and then kill them in the night. Or use the LOST iN THE FOG spell to make them loose their way.

I dont know this ... just deduce from the fact that everyone left them alone for centuries that they are quite dangerous.

If say a dwarf could kill one, they would have for sure, for the gold.

I like your thinking though I guess both options are possible that

a) they are so strong that only the really big good guys can kill them, but its two low priority for them
b) anyone with a shovel can kill them, but nobody knows so people leave them alone

That makes sense... also for Shelob, since ex-Mordor would become the New Gondor. And when Cirith Ungol got transformed into a historic tourist attraction, they would want to remove Shelob. Who they probably put in Minas Ithil Zoo

Yeah, there must be all sorts of stuff in those barrows.

Well, the whole AREA was sort of left alone for centuries, The WK's occupation had sort of "blighted" the whole region, and no one seems to have been eager to go wandering around there even after he had vacated it. There is also the matter of Tom Himself; since he is a force unto himself (read non aligned) he is a sort of indeterminate variable, and the downs are in HIS realm. He took a liking to the Hobbits, and seems to be close to Gandalf, but that doesn't mean that any person who wanders in will be so welcome. As for dwarves, how would they even know of it? It was a battle involving men and elves, a long long way from any of thier settlements. The Dwaven people love gold, but it's not like they they spend their time trapising around ME digging up every place there might be treasure (if they did they'd have known about the Troll's cache ages ago).
Yes this is sort of what I imagined for Mordor except instead of "New Gondor" I sort of Imagined it sort of splt in half between Ithillien since that is closer to Mordor in the north of Mordor, and Nurn in the South (though since Ithillien is a fiefdom of Gondor, and Nurn probably became one as well at the end of the War of the Rings (I imagine the Nurnien people were very greatful to thier liberators, and that Gondor would want to make sure that that land was close to them (good ports, plus he who control Nurn controls nearly all of Mordor's food supply.) )) You could say that they were sort of New Gondor.) Plus Ithillien had a colony of Mirkwood elves to give them a hand, elves who had shared a forest with giant spiders and so probably were handy at dealing with them (Shelob is a lot bigger than any Mirkwood spider, but at least the elves would have experiance.) But not the Minas Ithil Zoo (it is said explicitly that Minas Ithil/Morgul was never rebuilt, so the zoo would have to be in Emyn Armen.) Not that she'd probably last all that long in bright white light.