The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

[Galin]

Here are some things I find problematic about the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, especially my post number 4.

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showt...6330-Galadriel

If you can read all that and stay awake you might guess that I'm not a combiner myself. Or at least these are the things I found questionable back when I wrote this.

Do I still agree with me?

I can't be bothered to read it all again to find out

[Galin]

Back to The Elessar for a moment.

If I recall correctly Hammond and Scull note that according to the Olorin version of the Elessar tale, Galadriel would seem to have neglected her charge in that she herself did not keep the Elessar for Aragorn [Gandalf says that she shall hand the jool on when the time comes, to one named Elessar] -- as, according to the already published text in The Lord of the Rings, Galadriel gave the stone to Celebrian.

Of course she did ultimately 'hand' the Elfstone to Elfstone


And back to the second version, or Celebrimbor version, the seeming chronology puzzles me a bit:

Wielding the Elessar all things grew fair about Galadriel, until the coming of the Shadow to the forest. But afterwards when Nenya, chief of the Three, was sent to her by Celebrimbor, she needed it (as she thought) no more, and she gave it to Celebrian her daughter, and so it came to Arwen and to Aragorn who was called Elessar.'

The giving of the jool to Celebrian now agrees with The Lord of the Rings, but I suppose I should be reading this 'afterwards' to refer to some time 'after' wielding the Elessar, not to after the coming of the Shadow, as...

'... but 'the coming of the Shadow to the forest' undoubtedly refers to the arising of Sauron in Dol Guldur, which in Appendix A...'

Christopher Tolkien, commentary, The Elessar, Unfinished Tales

I mean according to The Lord of the Rings Celebrimbor died in Second Age 1697, and Galadriel must have had Nenya way before the arising of Sauron in Dol Guldur, even if she could not employ it until after the Last Alliance.

Also regarding Nenya as chief of the Three: in The Lord of the Rings Vilya is said to be the mightiest of the Three. I suppose one could try to make a distinction between the words 'mightiest' and 'chief' but again I wonder if Tolkien was not simply writing this draft without checking his previously published statements about the Three.

[Findegil]

Cellurdur, I have no problem at all if your oppionion in this or any other matter does disagree with mine. That is was a discussion bord is meant for: exchanging different oppionons.

But about Nimloth I have again to gainsay you. The Tale of Years is a late source if not even the latest we have for the end of the First Age. So your argument holds no water that Nimloth does disapear from later sources. And if you are talking about the last chapters of the Later Silmarillion manuscript that Tolkien did correct at a few points late in his life, then I have to say that many persons and detaisl of the story are missing from that without being rejected.
But anyway I agree that she was very probably slain by the Feanorians during the attack on the Havens of Sirion.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Galin]

884 - 910 SA: Tar-Aldarion makes many long voyages to Middle-Earth. He sails up Gwathló and meets with Galadriel. He gives Gil-galad nuts of the Mallorn. But since these do not grow well in Lindon Gil-galad gives them to Galadriel.

1000 SA: Galadriel does make contact with Lórien, which is slowly sindarized due to the migration of Elves from Eregion. Galadriel does plant the Mallorns in Lórien.

Perhaps not unexpectedly, considering my comments about Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn, I also have to question Tolkien a bit on his 'revised' history of the mallorn trees. JRRT describes that 'under her power' [Galadriel's power of course] the mallorn trees grew and flourished in Lorien.

OK but wasn't she powerful in Eregion too

Especially as in your scenario (following Tolkien's in CG&C), Galadriel was founder and ruler of Eregion (although again, I think this was rejected myself), so why plant the trees in Lorien rather than Eregion? I think it's clear enough that Tolkien's later view was that Galadriel did not take up Lorien as a permanent home until Third Age 1981, so she would have had chances to grow the trees elsewhere in my opinion.

But that said, given the description of Cerin Amroth, Lorien seemingly had mallorn trees before Galadriel and Celeborn took up rule there in any case (after Amroth was lost). So yes, if we agree on that, Nerwen 'must' have planted them before she 'moved in' as ruler, so to speak.

Tolkien could have explained things I guess, but I think the original idea was that these golden trees grew naturally in Lorien, making the realm unique, and JRRT only later tried to give them a 'Western' origin (Numenor, Tol Eressea), while connecting them to the power of Galadriel.

I mean even Gil-galad could not get them to flourish in Lindon, a more Western land than Lorien, but Galadriel could.


Once Eregion fell, obviously that would take care of that. Yet we still have Galadriel in Imladris for 'many years' in the Third Age for example, before the loss of Amroth [Unfinished Tales, Galadriel and Celeborn go to Imladris after their sojourn in Rhovanion]. And in one of Tolkien's own scenarios at least, he puts Galadriel in Lindon after Eregion falls, where Celeborn eventually rejoins her.

Again, Tolkien is creative enough to supply reasons for why Galadriel plants the trees East of the Misty Mountains on her visits to Lothlorien, but on the other hand I wonder if the original scenario wasn't easier?

Or not?

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galin

Again, Tolkien is creative enough to supply reasons for why Galadriel plants the trees East of the Misty Mountains on her visits to Lothlorien, but on the other hand I wonder if the original scenario wasn't easier?

Or perhaps she was waiting until she could act through her agent, Samwise?

[cellurdur]

Regarding the question about why would Galadriel let Sauron enter Eregion if she was the ruler, I guess it depends on what version of Galadriel we accept.

I have always found it quite telling that in the Lord of the Rings, Elrond wishes that even the 3 had never been made, but Galadriel only wishes that the One Ring had not been made or at least never been found.

Sauron found their weak point in suggesting that, helping one another, they could make Western Middle-earth as beautiful as Valinor. It was really a veiled attack on the gods, an incitement to try and make a separate independent paradise. Gilgalad repulsed all such overtures, as also did Elrond. But at Eregion great work began – and the Elves came their nearest to falling to 'magic' and machinery. With the aid of Sauron's lore they made Rings of Power ('power' is an ominous and sinister word in all these tales, except as applied to the gods).-Letter 131

This is dangerous close to what Galadriel is suggest to Celebrimbor in the Unfinished Tales, if we accept Celebrimbor as the maker.

'What wrong did the golden house of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea whose native home was Aman the Blessed. Here I am mightier.'
'What would you do then' said Celebrimbor
'I should have trees and grass about me that do not die-here in a land that is mine,' she answered.

It seems to me that Galadriel may have rejected Sauron, but she was still drawn to his offer. Her gift was in reading people's intentions. She may have seen that Sauron was hiding his malice, but none the less she desired what he had to offer.

Again she alone of the Wise wished for the One Ring to fall into her possession. Perhaps Galadriel allowed Sauron into her land to try and gain knowledge from him, but keeping him under close watch at the same time.

[Galin]

Celebrimbor as the maker of the Three is published in The Lord of the Rings, so I accept that.

But as for CG&C, the story goes that Galadriel actually scorned Annatar, and that Annatar perceived that she would be his chief adversary and obstacle, bearing her scorn with outward patience. And so Sauron works with Celebrimbor and the Mirdain: '... but he worked in secret, unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn.'


I mean, I agree, according to The Elessar Galadriel not only desired the preservation power of the Rings, but used Nenya once Sauron fell, as did Elrond. Yet Tolkien has her being Annatar's chief obstacle in CG&C, so much so that he must work in secret with the Mirdain... perhaps this was the 'answer' to the question? that perhaps Galadriel did not allow Sauron 'in Eregion' at all?

But I think Tolkien thought better of the whole thing. He makes Celebrimbor a Feanorean and makes him Lord of Eregion, and now whatever Galadriel's reaction to Sauron in Eregion, Sauron is allowed into the fold, and the deception continues until the Mirdain become aware of his true purpose (after the One is forged and so on).

Thus, Galadriel as ruler need not be ousted by the Mirdain, passing to Lothlorien before Sauron comes with war. In CG&C she went to Lorinand due to the revolt of the Jewel Smiths, but I note (Words, Phrases, and Passages)...

'... of Angband, many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastwards into Eriador and beyond (Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples; but originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor was also very important.)' entry Yrch

'Also it existed long before Galadriel's coming there -- it was originally ruled by Nandorin princes, and Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither after downfall of Eregion.' entry Lothlorien

'... simply Sindarin of Beleriand, brought in by Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion passed through Moria and established their realm on the east side of the...' entry Sindarin

And for the revised The Lord of the Rings, all that is noted is that the Noldor pass to Eregion (mithril and so on), and it is added that Celebrimbor is Lord of Eregion.

It seems a rather notable detail to skip that Galadriel and Celeborn were founders and rulers of Eregion! but if that version raised too many questions and had been abandoned...