The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

I don't think Tolkien forgot, as I think Celebrimbor as a Feanorean was later than the Elessar text, and only entered The Lord of the Rings in the revised edition (it also entered in a change to the text Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn as well).

In The Elessar, Celebrimbor is first friends with Enerdhil... but the note at the end makes Celebrimbor the maker of the jool, displacing Enerdhil (which might call into question if Enerdhil was still to be part of the tale at this point). So what I'm suggesting is that since we probably do not have Celebrimbor the Feanorean in Gondolin at all, then the maker of the jool in Gondolin can once again become Enerdhil... and Celebrimbor can make the later one in Eregion.

Are the inscriptions on the door of Moria from a the revised edition? Seems incredulous that any Elf of Gondolin would leave place the mark of Feanor above their door unless they were from there.

Christopher Tolkien's language appears to suggest that he believes the text comes after the revision of Celebrimbor's ancestry. Since he says he 'again' appears as an Elf from Gondolin.

I tend to go with what it was published unless it was a huge mistake. I think we can all accept that Celebrimbor was the son of Curufin.

I agree we can once again insert Enerdhil and have Celebrimbor as the maker of the 2nd Elessar, but I don't think Galadriel's character fits with her portrayal in Tolkien's last vision of her. She is dangerous close to encouraging Celebrimbor to forge the Great Rings in her language and she is still too prideful to accept the council of the Valar.

I am more inclined to have Glorfindel returning at some point in the 2nd Age replace Gandalf in the text and hand her the Elessar. Glorfindel being from Gondolin would be very aware of it's powers perhaps more so than even Gandalf.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Are the inscriptions on the door of Moria from a the revised edition? Seems incredulous that any Elf of Gondolin would leave place the mark of Feanor above their door unless they were from there.

The markings on the Door are from the first edition, yes, but see note 7 to Of Dwarves And Men.

Christopher Tolkien's language appears to suggest that he believes the text comes after the revision of Celebrimbor's ancestry. Since he says he 'again' appears as an Elf from Gondolin.

I think he means 'again' as this concept had appeared previously in this chapter. In Unfinished Tales when Christopher Tolkien says 'again' he refers the reader back to the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn (CG&C). And in note 7 he uses the word 'reappears', noting again both CG&C and The Elessar. After quoting CG&C, Christopher writes:

He reappears as a jewel-smith of Gondolin in the text The Elessar (...); but against the passage in concerning Galadriel and Celeborn just cited my father noted that it would be better to 'make him a descendant of Feanor'. Thus in the second edition (1966)...'

Note 7, Of Dwarves And Men

At the beginning of this note, CJRT explains:

'The earliest statement on the subject [Celebrimbor] is found in the post Lord of the Rings text Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn.'

And so far I can't find any reference to Celebrimbor being a descendant of Feanor in the drafts for The Lord of the Rings.

I tend to go with what it was published unless it was a huge mistake. I think we can all accept that Celebrimbor was the son of Curufin.

Yes Celebrimbor the Feanorean was never in question for me.

I think any history should work around author-published concepts, as things become very subjective when considering the possibility of what Tolkien intended to do, again, especially given his memory and late texts. JRRT clearly intended to make ros a Beorian word for example, until he realized already published text hindered him.

Would Tolkien have contradicted history (already in print) about Galadriel's role in the Rebellion, she being a rather major character? I don't think so... others might... he did alter that 'Finrod' was her father for example, from the first edition, but we know that for certain because JRRT himself published the revision.

In the end we have author-published text with RGEO, which is a description written in consideration of Galadriel's own words in The Lord of the Rings as well, versus a posthumously published account that never got beyond an adumbrated state and shows no indication that Tolkien was aware he would be dealing with some notable contradictions to history already on public bookshelves, so to speak.

I am more inclined to have Glorfindel returning at some point in the 2nd Age replace Gandalf in the text and hand her the Elessar. Glorfindel being from Gondolin would be very aware of it's powers perhaps more so than even Gandalf.

It's also possible that Tolkien intended to 'garble' this chronology a bit -- or rather let's say, perhaps he purposely allows the reader to wonder why Galadriel would not simply use Nenya at this point -- to inject a measure of doubt with respect to this version, although that's pure speculation on my part, admittedly.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

The markings on the Door are from the first edition, yes, but see note 7 to Of Dwarves And Men.

I have read it, you are right and I am in agreement.

I think any history should work around author-published concepts, as things become very subjective when considering the possibility of what Tolkien intended to do, again, especially given his memory and late texts. JRRT clearly intended to make ros a Beorian word for example, until he realized already published text hindered him.

Would Tolkien have contradicted history (already in print) about Galadriel's role in the Rebellion, she being a rather major character? I don't think so... others might... he did alter that 'Finrod' was her father for example, from the first edition, but we know that for certain because JRRT himself published the revision.

In the end we have author-published text with RGEO, which is a description written in consideration of Galadriel's own words in The Lord of the Rings as well, versus a posthumously published account that never got beyond an adumbrated state and shows no indication that Tolkien was aware he would be dealing with some notable contradictions to history already on public bookshelves, so to speak.

It's also possible that Tolkien intended to 'garble' this chronology a bit -- or rather let's say, perhaps he purposely allows the reader to wonder why Galadriel would not simply use Nenya at this point -- to inject a measure of doubt with respect to this version, although that's pure speculation on my part, admittedly.

Christopher Tolkien had previously mentioned how his father felt bound to things that were in print like he probably would have with Celebrimbor. However, he does mention the problem with Galadriel is philosophical. The Galadriel of the original history is not as noble he wants her to be. She has many faults and unless we choose to believe that she grew greatly due to her suffering then it is hard to make things fit.

I am still undecided at version of events to go with. For me there is a problem either way. The original version does not fit with the character Galadriel wanted to be, and the newer version fails to fit in with the published history or things around it.

As for why she did not use, Nenya, perhaps it was due to a desire to heal things. The Great Rings had the power to heal the hurts of the world, but their primary power was in preservation. The Elessar seems purely focused on healing the hurts of the world, but even then that does not seem a good enough reason.

There is also the problem that Galadriel said she gave the Elessar to Celebrian, but Celebrian would have been in Imladris before Galadriel took up permanent residence in Lorien.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Kinship: That first cousins are not allowed to marriage is wrong. It would only be forbidden if the parents that were not brethren and/or sister were also akin.

I'm going to have to ask for a citation on that one. The paradigmatic example of the forbidden first cousin relationship is, after all, Idril and Maeglin; and whatever Eol's ancestry (kinsman of Thingol or Tatyarin Avar), there is no suggestion that he is related to Elenwe.

[Galin]

I think Findegil is refering to a section of Morgoth's Ring dealing with the reborn fea, although that idea itself (as a mode of reincarnation among Elves) was ultimately rejected.

'For the marriages of the Eldar do not take place between close kin (...) By 'close kin' for this purpose was meant members of one 'house', especially sisters and brothers. None of the Eldar married those in a direct line of descent, nor children of the same parents, nor the sister or brother of either of their parents; nor did they wed 'half-sisters' or 'half-brothers' [these terms had a special meaning among the Eldar: Galin] (...) Otherwise 'first cousins', as we should say, might marry, but seldom did so, or desired to do so, unless one of the parents of each were far-sundered in kin.'

Morgoth's Ring, Laws A, The Later Quenta Silmarillion II

Of Maeglin would be a later work in any case -- or at least Tolkien worked on parts of it very late, but anyway I assume this must be the text Findegil is referring to.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I am still undecided at version of events to go with. For me there is a problem either way. The original version does not fit with the character Galadriel wanted to be, and the newer version fails to fit in with the published history or things around it.

I much prefer the rebel Galadriel. Possibly Tolkien desired to make Galadriel 'unstained' so that she could be better compared to the Virgin Mary (I have seen this argument anyway), but anyway I don't think an unstained Galadriel is a better character, and I see nothing necessarily 'less Christian' (if someone were to point out the arguable importance of Tolkien's faith with respect to the Galadriel matter) about a penitent Galadriel as compared to an unstained one.

Her great test is the One, why not begin with the proud 'young' Galadriel as one of the leaders of the Rebellion? Banned from Aman at the end of the First Age and proudly replying that she had no wish to do so.

To my mind the history of the early 1950s works fine with respect to the Rebellion (and even the Kinslaying, although granted this much could be altered). This version appears in the 1977 Silmarillion (with no mention of any role at Swanhaven), and it agrees well with JRRT's already published accounts.

There is both earlier and later text (compared to the early 1950s) that supports Galadriel and her brothers having no part at Swanhaven, although the earlier text only has Galadriel's 'ultimate brothers' of course, as it pre-dates The Lord of the Rings.

Again, if I recall correctly RGEO didn't reveal anything about Swanhaven, so I would have no great problem with adding Nerwen's defense of the Teleri here (noted in late texts for example)... but not with Celeborn however, as he was back in Beleriand...

... being Sindarin

[Findegil]

Galin is right that I based the assumption about marriage of first cousin on The History of Middle-Earth; volume X: Morgoth's Ring; part three: The Later Quenta Silmarillion; chapter II: The second Phase; sub-chapter: Laws and Customs among the Eldar. The context is a comment of the Eldar to revelation of the Valar that as children reborn Elves would take up their fromer marriages in the second life. This fact would restrict the family for the reborn child. After commenting that what the Valar said would mean that the reborn would not be a near kin of his former spouse, the text goes on with the passage I would like to give here more fully:

For the marriages of the Eldar do not take place between 'close kin'. This again is a matter in which they needed no law or instruction, but acted by nature, though they gave reasons for it later, declaring that it was due to the nature of bodies and the processes of generation; but also to the nature of fear. 'For,' they said, 'fear are also akin, and the motions of love between them, as say between a brother and sister, are not of the same kind as those that make the beginning of marriage.' By 'close kin' for this purpose was meant members of one 'house', especially sisters and brothers. None of the Eldar married those in direct line of descent, nor children of the same parents, nor the sister or brother of either of their parents; nor did they wed 'half-sisters' or 'half-brothers'. Since as has been shown only in the rarest events did the Eldar have second spouses, half-sister or half-brother had for them a special meaning: they used these terms when both of the parents of one child were related to both of the parents of another, as when two brothers married two sisters of another family, or a sister and a brother of one house married a brother and sister of another: things which often occurred. Otherwise 'first cousins', as we should say, might marry, but seldom did so, or desired to do so, unless one of the parents of each were far-sundered in kin.

It is right that Maeglin is the later text, and the passage as it is given in The Silmarillion; part three: Quenta Silamrillion; chapter 16: Of Maeglin was acording to The History of Middle-Earth; volume XI: The War of the Jewels; part three: The Wanderings of Hurin and other Writings not forming Part of the Quenta Silmarillion; chapter III: Maeglin unchanged:

Thus all seemed well with the fortunes of Maeglin, who had risen to be mighty among the princes of the Noldor, and greatest save one in the most renowned of their realms. Yet he did not reveal his heart: and though not all things went as he would he endured it in silence, hiding his mind so that few could read it, unless it were Idril Celebrindal. For from his first days in Gondolin he had borne a grief, ever worsening, that robbed him of all joy: he loved the beauty of Idril and desired her, without hope. The Eldar wedded not with kin so near, nor ever before had any desired to do so. And however that might be, Idril loved Maeglin not at all; and knowing his thought of her she loved him the less. For it seemed to her a thing strange and crooked in him, as indeed the Eldar ever since have deemed it: an evil fruit of the Kinslaying, whereby the shadow of the curse of Mandos fell upon the last hope of the Noldor. But as the years passed still Maeglin watched Idril, and waited, and his love turned to darkness in his heart. And he sought the more to have his will in other matters, shirking no toil or burden, if he might thereby have power.

Here the laws are not elaborated in such detail as before. The stated fact is simply that Idril and Maeglin are to near akin to marriage each other. Taking the laws given before strictly that would indicat that Idril and Maeglin would have to be 'half-brother' and 'half-sister' meaning that Eol and Elenwe would have been brother and sister, which is of course unfeasable. But the text in Of Maeglin does provide a relativation:

... The Eldar wedded not with kin so near, nor ever before had any desired to do so. And however that might be, ...

This does for me indicat that the supposed Middle-Earth internal writter of the text might not be as sure of the laws among the Eldar as he has suggested in the sentence before. And the description of how Idril looked at Maeglins desire for her does fit very well with the statment in Laws and Customs:

Otherwise 'first cousins', as we should say, might marry, but seldom did so, or desired to do so, unless one of the parents of each were far-sundered in kin.

As I sayed beofre, I am a combiner.

Posted by Cellurdur:

Also I don't think it is correct to associate Malgalad/Amdir with Galadon.

Well, first we have Celeborn as the son of Malgalad/Amdír and as brother of Amroth. Then we have Celeborn as the son of Galadon. You can chose or you can combine. If you chose that Celeborn the son of Galadon, he is no longer the brother Amroth and Amdír will be possibly unconected to the Elwe-Olwe-Elmo-Clan. If you chose Celeborn to be the son of Amdír, he is himself possibly unconected to the Elwe-Olwe-Elmo-Clan, which is gainsiad some were in the Apendizes to LotR. If you combine Galadon becomes another name for Malgalad/Amdír.

About Nimloth escape from the sack of Doriath: This is found in The History of Middle-Earth; volume XI: The War of the Jewels; part three: The Wanderings of Hurin and other Writings not forming Part of the Quenta Silmarillion; chapter V: The Tale of Years:

506-507. At Yule Dior fought the sons of Feanor on the east marches of Doriath, and was slain. There fell also Celegorn (by Dior's hand) and Curufin and Cranthir. The cruel servants of Celegorn seize Dior's sons (Elrun and Eldun) and leave them to starve in the forest. (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir.) [In margin: Maidros repenting seeks unavailingly for the children of Dior.] The Lady Lindis escaped with Elwing, and came hardly to Ossir, with the Necklace and the Jewel. Thence hearing the rumour she fled to the Havens of Sirion.

The wife of Dior has as many names as has the father of Celeborn! Here she is called Lindis, earlier she was named Elulin and later Nimloth. (See the year 497 in The Tale of Years and the comments of Christopher Tolkien for a full account of her names.)

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: I am not adamant on my interpretations reached by combination, but at least it is worth seeing if such combining comes to a 'no go' or not. I will have to reread RGEO to refresh what it has to say about Galadriel and the rebellion of the Noldor.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Galin is right that I based the assumption about marriage of first cousin on The History of Middle-Earth; volume X: Morgoth's Ring; part three: The Later Quenta Silmarillion; chapter II: The second Phase; sub-chapter: Laws and Customs among the Eldar. The context is a comment of the Eldar to revelation of the Valar that as children reborn Elves would take up their fromer marriages in the second life. This fact would restrict the family for the reborn child. After commenting that what the Valar said would mean that the reborn would not be a near kin of his former spouse, the text goes on with the passage I would like to give here more fully:It is right that Maeglin is the later text, and the passage as it is given in The Silmarillion; part three: Quenta Silamrillion; chapter 16: Of Maeglin was acording to The History of Middle-Earth; volume XI: The War of the Jewels; part three: The Wanderings of Hurin and other Writings not forming Part of the Quenta Silmarillion; chapter III: Maeglin unchanged: Here the laws are not elaborated in such detail as before. The stated fact is simply that Idril and Maeglin are to near akin to marriage each other. Taking the laws given before strictly that would indicat that Idril and Maeglin would have to be 'half-brother' and 'half-sister' meaning that Eol and Elenwe would have been brother and sister, which is of course unfeasable. But the text in Of Maeglin does provide a relativation: This does for me indicat that the supposed Middle-Earth internal writter of the text might not be as sure of the laws among the Eldar as he has suggested in the sentence before. And the description of how Idril looked at Maeglins desire for her does fit very well with the statment in Laws and Customs:
As I sayed beofre, I am a combiner.

I hope you don't take offense to this, but my philosophy is the opposite of yours, so disagree with what you wrote, though I respect your argument.

Tolkien ultimately rejected the idea of Elves being reborn in their offspring and settled on Manwe creating a new body for them. This renders a lot of the argument there against marriage being first cousins pointless.

Then in the Silmarill we have this

For from his first days in Gondolin he had borne a grief, ever worsening, that robbed him of all joy: he loved the beauty of Idril and desired her without hope. The Eldar wedded not with kin so near, nor ever before had any desired to.

This is quite strong language. If Galadriel had married her first cousin then why would he have no hope? The writer would be aware that Galadriel had married Celeborn, but he is still adamant that this feeling had never occurred before.

However, the paragraph goes on to describe this as a crooked thing and the work of the kinslaying. This hardly suggest it was accepted.

And however this might be, Idril loved Maeglin not at all; and knowing his thought of her she loved him the less. For it seemed to her a thing strange and crooked in him, as indeed the Eldar ever since deemed it: an evil fruit of the kinslaying

I don't think the two can be combined. We have to reject one. To me the Eldar not marrying cousins is vital to the story of Maeglin and Idril. There are no other examples of the Eldar marrying cousins and so will stick with the Eldar forbidding such close relations.

Posted by Cellurdur:Well, first we have Celeborn as the son of Malgalad/Amdír and as brother of Amroth. Then we have Celeborn as the son of Galadon. You can chose or you can combine. If you chose that Celeborn the son of Galadon, he is no longer the brother Amroth and Amdír will be possibly unconected to the Elwe-Olwe-Elmo-Clan. If you chose Celeborn to be the son of Amdír, he is himself possibly unconected to the Elwe-Olwe-Elmo-Clan, which is gainsiad some were in the Apendizes to LotR. If you combine Galadon becomes another name for Malgalad/Amdír.

As I said before I am against combining things. Amroth was also at one point the son of Celeborn. For me some older versions have to be rejected outright.

Celeborn was rejected a long time ago and nothing suggest they were again.

I don't see the need to place Amroth or even Oropher so closely to the line of Thingol or Olwe. There were other Sindar princes not as closely related. In fact I would say if anyone was to be part of the Elwe-Olwe-Elmo line it would be Thranduil. He tries to emulate Doriath and has a strong dislike for dwarves all stemming from the first fall of Doriath.

Celeborn is held in higher esteem and regard than the either Thranduil or Amroth. Celeborn is part of the White Council whilst it can be seen that the other two are not.

About Nimloth escape from the sack of Doriath: This is found in The History of Middle-Earth; volume XI: The War of the Jewels; part three: The Wanderings of Hurin and other Writings not forming Part of the Quenta Silmarillion; chapter V: The Tale of Years:The wife of Dior has as many names as has the father of Celeborn! Here she is called Lindis, earlier she was named Elulin and later Nimloth. (See the year 497 in The Tale of Years and the comments of Christopher Tolkien for a full account of her names.)

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: I am not adamant on my interpretations reached by combination, but at least it is worth seeing if such combining comes to a 'no go' or not. I will have to reread RGEO to refresh what it has to say about Galadriel and the rebellion of the Noldor.

The problem with this is that in the later version she outright disappears. At best she would survive the sakc of Doriath only to die in the assault on Sirion. It is inexplainable how she is not mentioned in account of her grandsons; Elrond and Elros. Would she be so quick to abandon them after losing her own sons? Things are less complicated if she dies in Doriath and Elwing is the sole survivor of the family.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

I much prefer the rebel Galadriel. Possibly Tolkien desired to make Galadriel 'unstained' so that she could be better compared to the Virgin Mary (I have seen this argument anyway), but anyway I don't think an unstained Galadriel is a better character, and I see nothing necessarily 'less Christian' (if someone were to point out the arguable importance of Tolkien's faith with respect to the Galadriel matter) about a penitent Galadriel as compared to an unstained one.

Her great test is the One, why not begin with the proud 'young' Galadriel as one of the leaders of the Rebellion? Banned from Aman at the end of the First Age and proudly replying that she had no wish to do so.

To my mind the history of the early 1950s works fine with respect to the Rebellion (and even the Kinslaying, although granted this much could be altered). This version appears in the 1977 Silmarillion (with no mention of any role at Swanhaven), and it agrees well with JRRT's already published accounts.

There is both earlier and later text (compared to the early 1950s) that supports Galadriel and her brothers having no part at Swanhaven, although the earlier text only has Galadriel's 'ultimate brothers' of course, as it pre-dates The Lord of the Rings.

Again, if I recall correctly RGEO didn't reveal anything about Swanhaven, so I would have no great problem with adding Nerwen's defense of the Teleri here (noted in late texts for example)... but not with Celeborn however, as he was back in Beleriand...

... being Sindarin

I too personally think that Tolkien close to the end of his life tried to make his work too Catholic.

On Galadriel, after much thought I think I will go with the prideful, willful Noldor, with a noble spirit we see early.

In my personal cannon I would leave her as one of the leaders of the Rebellion, but have her still fight fiercely to defend the Teleri.

Celeborn will remain a Sindar and they will meet in Doriath. Then it is easier to accept the version of the Elessar in, which Galadriel request Celebrimbor to make it. This fits in with Galadriel and Celebrimbor failing to find the will to destroy the One Ring. It also illustrates the difference between her attitude and Elrond's. Elrond would rather the three have never been made, but Galadriel would rather the One have never been found. Not to mention it displays the difference in their wisdom concerning Sauron. Gil-galad and Elrond did not necessarily perceive that Sauron was evil, but rejected his council. Galadriel perceived that Sauron was not, who he said he was and rejected him personally.

[Galin]

Here are some things I find problematic about the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, especially my post number 4.

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showt...6330-Galadriel

If you can read all that and stay awake you might guess that I'm not a combiner myself. Or at least these are the things I found questionable back when I wrote this.

Do I still agree with me?

I can't be bothered to read it all again to find out

[Galin]

Back to The Elessar for a moment.

If I recall correctly Hammond and Scull note that according to the Olorin version of the Elessar tale, Galadriel would seem to have neglected her charge in that she herself did not keep the Elessar for Aragorn [Gandalf says that she shall hand the jool on when the time comes, to one named Elessar] -- as, according to the already published text in The Lord of the Rings, Galadriel gave the stone to Celebrian.

Of course she did ultimately 'hand' the Elfstone to Elfstone


And back to the second version, or Celebrimbor version, the seeming chronology puzzles me a bit:

Wielding the Elessar all things grew fair about Galadriel, until the coming of the Shadow to the forest. But afterwards when Nenya, chief of the Three, was sent to her by Celebrimbor, she needed it (as she thought) no more, and she gave it to Celebrian her daughter, and so it came to Arwen and to Aragorn who was called Elessar.'

The giving of the jool to Celebrian now agrees with The Lord of the Rings, but I suppose I should be reading this 'afterwards' to refer to some time 'after' wielding the Elessar, not to after the coming of the Shadow, as...

'... but 'the coming of the Shadow to the forest' undoubtedly refers to the arising of Sauron in Dol Guldur, which in Appendix A...'

Christopher Tolkien, commentary, The Elessar, Unfinished Tales

I mean according to The Lord of the Rings Celebrimbor died in Second Age 1697, and Galadriel must have had Nenya way before the arising of Sauron in Dol Guldur, even if she could not employ it until after the Last Alliance.

Also regarding Nenya as chief of the Three: in The Lord of the Rings Vilya is said to be the mightiest of the Three. I suppose one could try to make a distinction between the words 'mightiest' and 'chief' but again I wonder if Tolkien was not simply writing this draft without checking his previously published statements about the Three.