Sauron <3

[Dark Lord]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Beyond the Dagor Dagorath not much can be sayed, but this comes from The Ainulindale:Since we have no restriction here (like 'the survivoirs of the choirs of the Ainur') we can deduce that Sauron was included in this prophecy. But I have some doubts if this will be very hopefull for you, Dark Lord, for Sauron is for sure one of the many addressed by 'Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright'. It might be that you wouldn't recognise Mairon again after the katalytic events around the Dagor Dagorath.

Respectfully
Findegil

Sorry, but I do not really understand. I have only just gotten into this 'thing'. I have heard of the music and Eru, but not much else, can you explain in an easier way please?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Dark Lord

Sorry, but I do not really understand. I have only just gotten into this 'thing'. I have heard of the music and Eru, but not much else, can you explain in an easier way please?

Hi this may be hard since Tolkien wrote masses on Middle Earth but only the Hobbit and the Lord ofvthe Rings were published in his lifetime. Tolkien loved language. He said that words were his music and aswell as learning languages from an early age he made up his own. At one level he created Middle Earth as a world for his invented langiages to live in. He had his own creationmyth and tried to maje sure that his myth was plausible..as if it could have been a real mythology for our own world. While the detail is something that attracts many of us it means it is terribly complex and it means that there isn't a definitive version of a lot of it. Tolkien worked on it pretty much all his life, would have a new idea but maybe not get round to revising the old stuff. And for a long time it didn't matter because Middle Earth was pretty much a private world.

Then he told his children the story that became the Hobbit and bits of his mythology came into it, and more into LOTR, but publishers weren't so keen on the Silmarillion as a prospect and by the timethe LOTR was published and popular Tolkien had about forty years worth of drafts which had to be made coherent with the aspects of the mythology that were in the published works. Ultimately he wasn't able to finish the job and left it to his son. So as well as the version of the mythology published as The Silmarillion a few years after Tolkien died, his son published twelve volumes of drafts with notes History of Middle Earth as well as Unfinished Tales which contains fragments closely connected with the published stories. Sauron features in a lot of it. so basically there is a huge amount of information much of which was revised and developed and can't be claimed to be Tolkien's final word on it. So you may have to do some reading and make up your own mind. There may be essays that eill give a precis but they may not be helpful if you aren't familiar with the context of the books.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Dark Lord

Sorry, but I do not really understand. I have only just gotten into this 'thing'. I have heard of the music and Eru, but not much else, can you explain in an easier way please?

Well, to put it very simply - as simply as I am able to - in the beginning, the world (called Arda, including both Middle-Earth and the Undying Lands, and presumably more) was created by the Ainur who, on Eru's request, made the "Great Music". This music sort of foreshadowed the way the world would be shaped (partially, Eru still took his liberties, such as the creation of Elves and Men), and Melkor, and some of those who followed him - for example Sauron - tried to introduce some "dissonance" into the Music by bringing in themes of their own, which did not really fit well with the rest. We could assume this included making Orcs and other dangerous beasts, basically bringing some evil things and events into the world. But it is also said that at the end of times, after Dagor Dagorath where Melkor will be defeated once and for all, the Ainur will all sing again, now together with the choirs of the Children of Ilúvatar (Elves and Men), and, as you read in the quote Findegil provided, "then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright". That basically means that there won't be the discord among the Ainur as it had been in the first Music. That means, Melkor or Sauron or others will NOT disturb it.

Now, this can of course mean two things, one can mean some utter annihilation of those "evil elements" in the sense of utter annihilation of Melkor and Sauron and other "bad guys". But what I think Findegil had in mind was the possibility of some sort of transformation of those "bad guys", that is, they won't anymore play their music against the theme, but along with it. And I would actually support that idea. Yes, the evil elements are definitely annihilated, but that does not require annihilation of Sauron himself. And it says: "all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased." So if we understood it the way that this would also apply to Sauron, it would actually be some sort of "revelation moment" for Sauron, when he would finally also understand his own purpose, which he himself had not been aware of before. I think that's quite a nice and hopeful idea.

Hope that helps clarifying it

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

So if we understood it the way that this would also apply to Sauron, it would actually be some sort of "revelation moment" for Sauron, when he would finally also understand his own purpose, which he himself had not been aware of before. I think that's quite a nice and hopeful idea.

I find this an interesting thought. We know that Morgoth is doomed to die at the hand of Turambar, which presumably means that he is completely annihilated - not imprisoned, not exiled, not simply divested of his incarnate body, but totally destroyed in spirit at the most fundamental level. We know that Sauron was "only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself." (Valaquenta) Given that Sauron was only a propagator, and not the originator, of Evil, does that put himself in a different position to his old Master? The destruction of Morgoth in absolute terms (rather than the previous compromises), which includes remaking all of Arda free of his taint, means the destruction of Evil in totality, and Sauron was only one of the symptoms, if apparently the worst after the cause himself. What about other Úmaiar? Saruman? Orcs? Would they be "healed" of the taint of Melkor along with everything else?
It's one of those questions which I have always found curious regarding the theodicy of Eä and the ultimate consequences for evil deeds. How much responsibility is there in the final balance between one's own will to action and the ever-present 'Morgoth-element' putting an evil tendency into all matter? If anyone has read Professor Tom Shippey's The Road to Middle-earth he discusses this as a Boethian-Manichean tension in Professor Tolkien's work, suggesting mediation between one's own potential evil and Evil as an external force. But we can't know how Eru weighs this matter. Were all Men treated equally after death? After passing beyond the Circles of the World would someone like Aragorn or Elros be given the same treatment as, say, The Lord of the Nazgûl? Given that not even the Valar knew I suppose it can only be left to the imagination. Considering, though, that Professor Tolkien did not support the concept of Absolute Evil, though, I can imagine it following that no one was necessarily irredeemably evil either. But had Sauron already had his chance at the end of the First Age?

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I somehow doubt that Eru would be very sympathetic.

Well, after all it's all part of Eru's plan.

I'm kind of wondering what happened to Sauron's power after the destruction of the Ring. Is it simple physics, changes in matter and energy transformation and so forth, or is there more to it than that? If it's the former, Sauron's energy is now in the earth, and if we think of Middle-earth as Morgoth's Ring (in the sense that while Sauron put his power into the Ring, Morgoth spent his on the entire Middle-earth), would he technically be able to draw some of Sauron's original power back to him at Dagor Dagorath?

Originally Posted by Dark Lord

I am more deeply saddened now that he can never return...

If you love someone, sometimes it's better to let them go.

Hmmm, if only PJ made an alternative ending where Sauron conquers ME....

PJ has deviated from the books enough as it is. The Tolkien Estate would kill him if he did that.

[Dark Lord]

If you love someone, sometimes it's better to let them go.

Haha, you make me laugh.

Let me put it this way, in complete honesty.

If I was in ME while Sauron was around, I would help him as much as I can, if he was destroyed, I would try to bring him back.

Seriously. I would devote my life to him.

Now, if he was a real God, I would worship him. Judge me if you will, but I love him. Haha.

And as for PJ 'destroying Tolkeins way', an alternative ending isn't really destroying it. He doesn't have to touch the first or the second movie, he could just make something like, instead of Gollum biting Frodo's finger, maybe, make him escape?

Then along come the WR'S, get the ring, and just show like 20 minutes of what happens to ME.

He could even rename the 'main' ending to the 'real' ending and call the second ending the 'fake' ending so people would understand its not really the real one, plus, it should make some other people happy, who are sadistic and like the bad guys to win, like me.

[Findegil]

Sorry, Dark Lord, that other had to clear up my posting. Looking back at it, I see now that it must have been very cryptic for you.

Legat gave as good an explainantion of its background as might be possible.
I would just add one bit of information to his discription of what went wrong during the music of the Ainur: Melkor, who was later know as Morgoth, did not introduce 'evil' as an idea or concept into the theme given by Eru (the Allfather, allmighty and omnipotent God). Melkor did only add a theme of his own that was unlike and in disharmony with Eru's theme that the other Ainur played around him. Some other Ainur, like Mairon, who later was called Sauron, and the Ainur later called Balrogs and Boldogs, did harmonise their music to that of Melkor instaed of playing the theme of Eru. Evil arose from the resulting disharmony not from Melkors theme directly.
Melkors theme was not evil. It is discribed as simple and boring compared to the one of Eru, but not as evil in itself.
The evil dead that Melkor and the Ainur that follwoed him did, was to stick to Melkors theme and not to follow the correctiv action that Eru introduced (twice) when the disharmony arose.

I do not believe that Melkor was nihilated in the Dagor Dagorath.
One reason is that spirits in Tolkiens univers are driven directly from Eru and are undistructable, even if we speak about the relativly small spirits, compared to Melkor, of Elves or Men. If nihilation of spirits was possible at all, it would be an akt of Eru. But speaking about the Ainur in special this seems to me impossible as well. They are discribed as the ofspring of Erus thoughts. To eliminat one of them would be like changing your own history, so that you never had have this particular thought. This is atleast beyond my limited understanding, so it might be that an omnipotent God is able of the deed.
A second reason is this speech by Eru at the end of the music of the Ainur, when he promissed to show the Ainur what their song had been about in pre-vision of the history of Eä (the univers):

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

What he said too Melkor at the end sounds much more like redemtion then like nihilation, at least for me.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Findegil

What he said too Melkor at the end sounds much more like redemtion then like nihilation, at least for me.

I've got quite similar ideas in response to Dark Lord's post. And that reminds me about one ancient philosopher who Tolkien was, no doubt, aware of:

Origen (pron.: /ˈɒrɪdʒən/; Greek: Ὠριγένης Ōrigénēs), or Origen Adamantius (184/185 – 253/254),[1] was a scholar and theologian of early Christian interest in Alexandria, and one of the writers regarding the early Church. During the fifth and sixth centuries, his orthodoxy was questioned, largely because he believed in the pre-existence and transmigration of souls, and apokatastasis, or universal reconciliation, ideas which were discussed among some patristic writers but which were later rejected as heretical... However, in recent years the idea has found some reconsideration[4] especially among Restorationist Christian groups. [...]

As in the beginning all intelligent beings were united to God, Origen also held out the possibility, though he did not assert so definitively, that in the end all beings, perhaps even the arch-fiend Satan,[7] would be reconciled to God in what is called the apokatastasis ("restitution").

The words of Eru quoted by Findegil could be interpreted in different ways, thus we cannot say if the universal reconciliation is Eru's design but there might be such possibility and in that case Sauron is not excluded - presumably, after the end of Arda and Middle Earth. Before that, as Tolkien himself stated somewhere else, Sauron (and Saruman too) was sentenced to be present in the world until its end as a powerless spirit. May be we can imagine future adherents finding their way around to communicate with these spirits, obtaining some kind of important knowledge... Why not?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Dark Lord

Haha, you make me laugh.

Let me put it this way, in complete honesty.

If I was in ME while Sauron was around, I would help him as much as I can, if he was destroyed, I would try to bring him back.

Seriously. I would devote my life to him.

Now, if he was a real God, I would worship him. Judge me if you will, but I love him. Haha.

Worship a merciless genocidal megalomaniac intent on destroying basic freedoms and wiping out whole civilizations? Considering there was a dearth of qualified psychotherapists in 3rd Age Middle-earth, I am not certain of any good outcome of such mindless idolatry.

Originally Posted by Dark Lord

He could even rename the 'main' ending to the 'real' ending and call the second ending the 'fake' ending so people would understand its not really the real one, plus, it should make some other people happy, who are sadistic and like the bad guys to win, like me.

Are sadists ever truly happy? The terms seem incongruous.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Worship a merciless genocidal megalomaniac intent on destroying basic freedoms and wiping out whole civilizations? Considering there was a dearth of qualified psychotherapists in 3rd Age Middle-earth, I am not certain of any good outcome of such mindless idolatry.

Indeed, backing Sauron didn't work out so well for anyone who chose to follow him. Loyalty to that second-rate Morgoth cost the Númenóreans what was pretty near an idyllic life for Men on Middle-earth.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Are sadists ever truly happy? The terms seem incongruous.

Peter Jackson seems quite content.

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

...

Now, this can of course mean two things, one can mean some utter annihilation of those "evil elements" in the sense of utter annihilation of Melkor and Sauron and other "bad guys". But what I think Findegil had in mind was the possibility of some sort of transformation of those "bad guys", that is, they won't anymore play their music against the theme, but along with it. And I would actually support that idea. Yes, the evil elements are definitely annihilated, but that does not require annihilation of Sauron himself. And it says: "all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased." So if we understood it the way that this would also apply to Sauron, it would actually be some sort of "revelation moment" for Sauron, when he would finally also understand his own purpose, which he himself had not been aware of before. I think that's quite a nice and hopeful idea.

Hope that helps clarifying it

## Metaphysical problem: if the "evil elements" don't exist, they can't be annihilated. Evil is not a thing in itself - it's a lack of a good that is meant to be present. Evil is not a thing in Sauron - it's an absence of a good. Strength, deliberation,wisdom, intelligence, and other qualities required for doing evil, are all good things - Sauron had all of these, as when he deceived Ar-Pharazon.

Tolkien could hardly have been unaware of Boethius (d.524), or of the Old English version of Boethius' "Consolation of Philosophy" - & Boethius is the main author to whom later centuries owed that notion of evil. That evil is unreal fits nicely with the rest of the metaphysical notions in the legendarium.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Saurondil

## Metaphysical problem: if the "evil elements" don't exist, they can't be annihilated. Evil is not a thing in itself - it's a lack of a good that is meant to be present. Evil is not a thing in Sauron - it's an absence of a good. Strength, deliberation,wisdom, intelligence, and other qualities required for doing evil, are all good things - Sauron had all of these, as when he deceived Ar-Pharazon.

Tolkien could hardly have been unaware of Boethius (d.524), or of the Old English version of Boethius' "Consolation of Philosophy" - & Boethius is the main author to whom later centuries owed that notion of evil. That evil is unreal fits nicely with the rest of the metaphysical notions in the legendarium.

I totally agree with you on the relevance of the Christian interpretation of evil as a lack of (or shortage in) good. However, even this negative nature of evil makes it non-existent only in comparison to absolute, pure good which is nothing but Eru himself. All other beings have their limitations and thus are imperfect which mean even the most excellent of them suffer some shortage in good in their nature and thus can potentially be corrupted, as the example of Melkor shows.

This is why evil, measured against ordinary beings is something real and only a great and wise soul (such as Faramir) can resist its persistent temptations. This is why Boethius had to seek consolation in philosophy which is capable of disclosing the true correlation between evil and good, which is not that apparent for one who belongs to this world. And this is why evil, despite it is nothing, is able to take so many shapes and to be something significant and active.