Sauron <3

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Dark Lord

Secondly, I must point out, before I ask my question, that Sauron, is my absolute favourite character ever to be created.

Understandable! Sauron is one of my favourite characters invented by Professor Tolkien (which may be obvious from my user name and avatar) but personally I find him fascinating rather than liking anything about him as such, or feeling sorry for him. However, I think his characterisation in The Silmarillion etc is incredibly interesting. Apologies therefore for the long post - I could talk about Sauron all day.

Originally Posted by Dark Lord

Couldn't Eru resurrect him, or give him some power?

Given that he was in the habit of claiming that Eru didn't exist and that Morgoth (earlier) or he himself (later) was the real God despite having personal experience of Eru's existence, and that this was considered to be "an abomination" (Letters p.243) I somehow doubt that Eru would be very sympathetic.

Originally Posted by Dark Lord

I heard that The Blue Wizards were some sort of necromancers and that someone said that they could bring Sauron back. True?

I think this might be a case of misinformation. Professor Tolkien once speculated that the Blue Wizards could have been responsible for the establishment of harmful cults in the East (but also that they might have actually helped a good deal in promoting resistance to Sauron among the Easterlings). They are not, as far as I'm aware, ever associated with Necromancy. Regardless, "Necromancy" in Middle-earth is largely about manipulating spirits (particularly of dead Elves who refuse the call to the Halls of Waiting) rather than the modern interpretation of "bringing people back to life", which is pretty much impossible - Elves could be reincarnated in Aman and Ainur could rebuild their own bodies through effort of will but that's about it, and it was too late for Sauron to do that (see below).

Originally Posted by Dark Lord

What about the last battle? Dagor Dagorath. I read that Melkor, will break open the Doors of Night and him and Sauron shall escape the Void, destroy the moon and the sun, and that all evil things will fight with the free people's and that Sauron will be in it as well.

Does anyone know if Sauron will dies during the battle? Does he even have a physical form then?

Would he have his power back or will be be extremely weak?

This remark from the Professor in Morgoth's Ring seems relevant:
"Melkor was not Sauron. We speak of him being 'weakened, shrunken, reduced'; but this is in comparison with the great Valar. He had been a being of immense potency and life. ... The dark spirit of Melkor's 'remainder' might be expected, therefore, eventually and after long ages to increase again, even (as some held) to draw back into itself some of its formerly dissipated power. It would do this (even if Sauron could not) because of its relative greatness." (p. 404)

Evidently it was not within the capacity of Sauron, a comparatively lesser being, to restore his lost power.

Originally Posted by Dark Lord

Would they destroy him forever? So he has no spirit form or physical form, so he is basically dead? Please not let this be true, he deserved to rule ME in my opinion.

Given that Sauron was, in the Professor's words, "as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible" (Letters p.243) it would suggest to me that in the final analysis he would be either destroyed or left totally impotent forever. As far as deserving to rule Middle-earth, well... at least as far as the story itself goes, Manwë was High King of Arda by divine right so that kind of precludes any other ruler from being morally acceptable on such a scale (as far as the internal logic of the story goes).
As interesting as I think Sauron is, he's still a murderer, liar, warmonger and tyrant superseded only by Morgoth himself!
At the end of the First Age there might have been some hope for his recovery, but by the end of the Third I think it's fair to say that the story considers him to be beyond redemption.

[Dark Lord]

Well, thanks guys.

I am more deeply saddened now that he can never return...

Hmmm, if only PJ made an alternative ending where Sauron conquers ME....

If anyone else, would like to give facts/opinions that are true, and cheer me up, don't be afraid to post.

One day, I hope he can return...

I also wonder what would happen to him during Dagor Dagorath and after the battle.....

[Findegil]

Beyond the Dagor Dagorath not much can be sayed, but this comes from The Ainulindale:

Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.

Since we have no restriction here (like 'the survivoirs of the choirs of the Ainur') we can deduce that Sauron was included in this prophecy. But I have some doubts if this will be very hopefull for you, Dark Lord, for Sauron is for sure one of the many addressed by 'Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright'. It might be that you wouldn't recognise Mairon again after the katalytic events around the Dagor Dagorath.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Dark Lord]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Beyond the Dagor Dagorath not much can be sayed, but this comes from The Ainulindale:Since we have no restriction here (like 'the survivoirs of the choirs of the Ainur') we can deduce that Sauron was included in this prophecy. But I have some doubts if this will be very hopefull for you, Dark Lord, for Sauron is for sure one of the many addressed by 'Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright'. It might be that you wouldn't recognise Mairon again after the katalytic events around the Dagor Dagorath.

Respectfully
Findegil

Sorry, but I do not really understand. I have only just gotten into this 'thing'. I have heard of the music and Eru, but not much else, can you explain in an easier way please?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Dark Lord

Sorry, but I do not really understand. I have only just gotten into this 'thing'. I have heard of the music and Eru, but not much else, can you explain in an easier way please?

Hi this may be hard since Tolkien wrote masses on Middle Earth but only the Hobbit and the Lord ofvthe Rings were published in his lifetime. Tolkien loved language. He said that words were his music and aswell as learning languages from an early age he made up his own. At one level he created Middle Earth as a world for his invented langiages to live in. He had his own creationmyth and tried to maje sure that his myth was plausible..as if it could have been a real mythology for our own world. While the detail is something that attracts many of us it means it is terribly complex and it means that there isn't a definitive version of a lot of it. Tolkien worked on it pretty much all his life, would have a new idea but maybe not get round to revising the old stuff. And for a long time it didn't matter because Middle Earth was pretty much a private world.

Then he told his children the story that became the Hobbit and bits of his mythology came into it, and more into LOTR, but publishers weren't so keen on the Silmarillion as a prospect and by the timethe LOTR was published and popular Tolkien had about forty years worth of drafts which had to be made coherent with the aspects of the mythology that were in the published works. Ultimately he wasn't able to finish the job and left it to his son. So as well as the version of the mythology published as The Silmarillion a few years after Tolkien died, his son published twelve volumes of drafts with notes History of Middle Earth as well as Unfinished Tales which contains fragments closely connected with the published stories. Sauron features in a lot of it. so basically there is a huge amount of information much of which was revised and developed and can't be claimed to be Tolkien's final word on it. So you may have to do some reading and make up your own mind. There may be essays that eill give a precis but they may not be helpful if you aren't familiar with the context of the books.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Dark Lord

Sorry, but I do not really understand. I have only just gotten into this 'thing'. I have heard of the music and Eru, but not much else, can you explain in an easier way please?

Well, to put it very simply - as simply as I am able to - in the beginning, the world (called Arda, including both Middle-Earth and the Undying Lands, and presumably more) was created by the Ainur who, on Eru's request, made the "Great Music". This music sort of foreshadowed the way the world would be shaped (partially, Eru still took his liberties, such as the creation of Elves and Men), and Melkor, and some of those who followed him - for example Sauron - tried to introduce some "dissonance" into the Music by bringing in themes of their own, which did not really fit well with the rest. We could assume this included making Orcs and other dangerous beasts, basically bringing some evil things and events into the world. But it is also said that at the end of times, after Dagor Dagorath where Melkor will be defeated once and for all, the Ainur will all sing again, now together with the choirs of the Children of Ilúvatar (Elves and Men), and, as you read in the quote Findegil provided, "then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright". That basically means that there won't be the discord among the Ainur as it had been in the first Music. That means, Melkor or Sauron or others will NOT disturb it.

Now, this can of course mean two things, one can mean some utter annihilation of those "evil elements" in the sense of utter annihilation of Melkor and Sauron and other "bad guys". But what I think Findegil had in mind was the possibility of some sort of transformation of those "bad guys", that is, they won't anymore play their music against the theme, but along with it. And I would actually support that idea. Yes, the evil elements are definitely annihilated, but that does not require annihilation of Sauron himself. And it says: "all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased." So if we understood it the way that this would also apply to Sauron, it would actually be some sort of "revelation moment" for Sauron, when he would finally also understand his own purpose, which he himself had not been aware of before. I think that's quite a nice and hopeful idea.

Hope that helps clarifying it

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

So if we understood it the way that this would also apply to Sauron, it would actually be some sort of "revelation moment" for Sauron, when he would finally also understand his own purpose, which he himself had not been aware of before. I think that's quite a nice and hopeful idea.

I find this an interesting thought. We know that Morgoth is doomed to die at the hand of Turambar, which presumably means that he is completely annihilated - not imprisoned, not exiled, not simply divested of his incarnate body, but totally destroyed in spirit at the most fundamental level. We know that Sauron was "only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself." (Valaquenta) Given that Sauron was only a propagator, and not the originator, of Evil, does that put himself in a different position to his old Master? The destruction of Morgoth in absolute terms (rather than the previous compromises), which includes remaking all of Arda free of his taint, means the destruction of Evil in totality, and Sauron was only one of the symptoms, if apparently the worst after the cause himself. What about other Úmaiar? Saruman? Orcs? Would they be "healed" of the taint of Melkor along with everything else?
It's one of those questions which I have always found curious regarding the theodicy of Eä and the ultimate consequences for evil deeds. How much responsibility is there in the final balance between one's own will to action and the ever-present 'Morgoth-element' putting an evil tendency into all matter? If anyone has read Professor Tom Shippey's The Road to Middle-earth he discusses this as a Boethian-Manichean tension in Professor Tolkien's work, suggesting mediation between one's own potential evil and Evil as an external force. But we can't know how Eru weighs this matter. Were all Men treated equally after death? After passing beyond the Circles of the World would someone like Aragorn or Elros be given the same treatment as, say, The Lord of the Nazgûl? Given that not even the Valar knew I suppose it can only be left to the imagination. Considering, though, that Professor Tolkien did not support the concept of Absolute Evil, though, I can imagine it following that no one was necessarily irredeemably evil either. But had Sauron already had his chance at the end of the First Age?

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I somehow doubt that Eru would be very sympathetic.

Well, after all it's all part of Eru's plan.

I'm kind of wondering what happened to Sauron's power after the destruction of the Ring. Is it simple physics, changes in matter and energy transformation and so forth, or is there more to it than that? If it's the former, Sauron's energy is now in the earth, and if we think of Middle-earth as Morgoth's Ring (in the sense that while Sauron put his power into the Ring, Morgoth spent his on the entire Middle-earth), would he technically be able to draw some of Sauron's original power back to him at Dagor Dagorath?

Originally Posted by Dark Lord

I am more deeply saddened now that he can never return...

If you love someone, sometimes it's better to let them go.

Hmmm, if only PJ made an alternative ending where Sauron conquers ME....

PJ has deviated from the books enough as it is. The Tolkien Estate would kill him if he did that.

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

...

Now, this can of course mean two things, one can mean some utter annihilation of those "evil elements" in the sense of utter annihilation of Melkor and Sauron and other "bad guys". But what I think Findegil had in mind was the possibility of some sort of transformation of those "bad guys", that is, they won't anymore play their music against the theme, but along with it. And I would actually support that idea. Yes, the evil elements are definitely annihilated, but that does not require annihilation of Sauron himself. And it says: "all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased." So if we understood it the way that this would also apply to Sauron, it would actually be some sort of "revelation moment" for Sauron, when he would finally also understand his own purpose, which he himself had not been aware of before. I think that's quite a nice and hopeful idea.

Hope that helps clarifying it

## Metaphysical problem: if the "evil elements" don't exist, they can't be annihilated. Evil is not a thing in itself - it's a lack of a good that is meant to be present. Evil is not a thing in Sauron - it's an absence of a good. Strength, deliberation,wisdom, intelligence, and other qualities required for doing evil, are all good things - Sauron had all of these, as when he deceived Ar-Pharazon.

Tolkien could hardly have been unaware of Boethius (d.524), or of the Old English version of Boethius' "Consolation of Philosophy" - & Boethius is the main author to whom later centuries owed that notion of evil. That evil is unreal fits nicely with the rest of the metaphysical notions in the legendarium.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Saurondil

## Metaphysical problem: if the "evil elements" don't exist, they can't be annihilated. Evil is not a thing in itself - it's a lack of a good that is meant to be present. Evil is not a thing in Sauron - it's an absence of a good. Strength, deliberation,wisdom, intelligence, and other qualities required for doing evil, are all good things - Sauron had all of these, as when he deceived Ar-Pharazon.

Tolkien could hardly have been unaware of Boethius (d.524), or of the Old English version of Boethius' "Consolation of Philosophy" - & Boethius is the main author to whom later centuries owed that notion of evil. That evil is unreal fits nicely with the rest of the metaphysical notions in the legendarium.

I totally agree with you on the relevance of the Christian interpretation of evil as a lack of (or shortage in) good. However, even this negative nature of evil makes it non-existent only in comparison to absolute, pure good which is nothing but Eru himself. All other beings have their limitations and thus are imperfect which mean even the most excellent of them suffer some shortage in good in their nature and thus can potentially be corrupted, as the example of Melkor shows.

This is why evil, measured against ordinary beings is something real and only a great and wise soul (such as Faramir) can resist its persistent temptations. This is why Boethius had to seek consolation in philosophy which is capable of disclosing the true correlation between evil and good, which is not that apparent for one who belongs to this world. And this is why evil, despite it is nothing, is able to take so many shapes and to be something significant and active.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Dark Lord

Well, thanks guys.

I am more deeply saddened now that he can never return...

Hmmm, if only PJ made an alternative ending where Sauron conquers ME....

If anyone else, would like to give facts/opinions that are true, and cheer me up, don't be afraid to post.

One day, I hope he can return...

I also wonder what would happen to him during Dagor Dagorath and after the battle.....

Well you are free to write your own fanfic. Even if Tolkien were still around I doubt he would have gone that way, he abandoned a LOTR sequel after a few pages partly because it undermined the victory over Sauron in LOTR if I remember rightly.

Tolkien was a devout Christian and l think he intended if anything a glimpse of the final victory to a

small triumph before evil conquered. I don't think he would ever have given Sauron victory though hemight have found some route to redemption.