Sauron <3

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

So if we understood it the way that this would also apply to Sauron, it would actually be some sort of "revelation moment" for Sauron, when he would finally also understand his own purpose, which he himself had not been aware of before. I think that's quite a nice and hopeful idea.

I find this an interesting thought. We know that Morgoth is doomed to die at the hand of Turambar, which presumably means that he is completely annihilated - not imprisoned, not exiled, not simply divested of his incarnate body, but totally destroyed in spirit at the most fundamental level. We know that Sauron was "only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself." (Valaquenta) Given that Sauron was only a propagator, and not the originator, of Evil, does that put himself in a different position to his old Master? The destruction of Morgoth in absolute terms (rather than the previous compromises), which includes remaking all of Arda free of his taint, means the destruction of Evil in totality, and Sauron was only one of the symptoms, if apparently the worst after the cause himself. What about other Úmaiar? Saruman? Orcs? Would they be "healed" of the taint of Melkor along with everything else?
It's one of those questions which I have always found curious regarding the theodicy of Eä and the ultimate consequences for evil deeds. How much responsibility is there in the final balance between one's own will to action and the ever-present 'Morgoth-element' putting an evil tendency into all matter? If anyone has read Professor Tom Shippey's The Road to Middle-earth he discusses this as a Boethian-Manichean tension in Professor Tolkien's work, suggesting mediation between one's own potential evil and Evil as an external force. But we can't know how Eru weighs this matter. Were all Men treated equally after death? After passing beyond the Circles of the World would someone like Aragorn or Elros be given the same treatment as, say, The Lord of the Nazgûl? Given that not even the Valar knew I suppose it can only be left to the imagination. Considering, though, that Professor Tolkien did not support the concept of Absolute Evil, though, I can imagine it following that no one was necessarily irredeemably evil either. But had Sauron already had his chance at the end of the First Age?

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I somehow doubt that Eru would be very sympathetic.

Well, after all it's all part of Eru's plan.

I'm kind of wondering what happened to Sauron's power after the destruction of the Ring. Is it simple physics, changes in matter and energy transformation and so forth, or is there more to it than that? If it's the former, Sauron's energy is now in the earth, and if we think of Middle-earth as Morgoth's Ring (in the sense that while Sauron put his power into the Ring, Morgoth spent his on the entire Middle-earth), would he technically be able to draw some of Sauron's original power back to him at Dagor Dagorath?

Originally Posted by Dark Lord

I am more deeply saddened now that he can never return...

If you love someone, sometimes it's better to let them go.

Hmmm, if only PJ made an alternative ending where Sauron conquers ME....

PJ has deviated from the books enough as it is. The Tolkien Estate would kill him if he did that.

[Dark Lord]

If you love someone, sometimes it's better to let them go.

Haha, you make me laugh.

Let me put it this way, in complete honesty.

If I was in ME while Sauron was around, I would help him as much as I can, if he was destroyed, I would try to bring him back.

Seriously. I would devote my life to him.

Now, if he was a real God, I would worship him. Judge me if you will, but I love him. Haha.

And as for PJ 'destroying Tolkeins way', an alternative ending isn't really destroying it. He doesn't have to touch the first or the second movie, he could just make something like, instead of Gollum biting Frodo's finger, maybe, make him escape?

Then along come the WR'S, get the ring, and just show like 20 minutes of what happens to ME.

He could even rename the 'main' ending to the 'real' ending and call the second ending the 'fake' ending so people would understand its not really the real one, plus, it should make some other people happy, who are sadistic and like the bad guys to win, like me.

[Findegil]

Sorry, Dark Lord, that other had to clear up my posting. Looking back at it, I see now that it must have been very cryptic for you.

Legat gave as good an explainantion of its background as might be possible.
I would just add one bit of information to his discription of what went wrong during the music of the Ainur: Melkor, who was later know as Morgoth, did not introduce 'evil' as an idea or concept into the theme given by Eru (the Allfather, allmighty and omnipotent God). Melkor did only add a theme of his own that was unlike and in disharmony with Eru's theme that the other Ainur played around him. Some other Ainur, like Mairon, who later was called Sauron, and the Ainur later called Balrogs and Boldogs, did harmonise their music to that of Melkor instaed of playing the theme of Eru. Evil arose from the resulting disharmony not from Melkors theme directly.
Melkors theme was not evil. It is discribed as simple and boring compared to the one of Eru, but not as evil in itself.
The evil dead that Melkor and the Ainur that follwoed him did, was to stick to Melkors theme and not to follow the correctiv action that Eru introduced (twice) when the disharmony arose.

I do not believe that Melkor was nihilated in the Dagor Dagorath.
One reason is that spirits in Tolkiens univers are driven directly from Eru and are undistructable, even if we speak about the relativly small spirits, compared to Melkor, of Elves or Men. If nihilation of spirits was possible at all, it would be an akt of Eru. But speaking about the Ainur in special this seems to me impossible as well. They are discribed as the ofspring of Erus thoughts. To eliminat one of them would be like changing your own history, so that you never had have this particular thought. This is atleast beyond my limited understanding, so it might be that an omnipotent God is able of the deed.
A second reason is this speech by Eru at the end of the music of the Ainur, when he promissed to show the Ainur what their song had been about in pre-vision of the history of Eä (the univers):

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

What he said too Melkor at the end sounds much more like redemtion then like nihilation, at least for me.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Findegil

What he said too Melkor at the end sounds much more like redemtion then like nihilation, at least for me.

I've got quite similar ideas in response to Dark Lord's post. And that reminds me about one ancient philosopher who Tolkien was, no doubt, aware of:

Origen (pron.: /ˈɒrɪdʒən/; Greek: Ὠριγένης Ōrigénēs), or Origen Adamantius (184/185 – 253/254),[1] was a scholar and theologian of early Christian interest in Alexandria, and one of the writers regarding the early Church. During the fifth and sixth centuries, his orthodoxy was questioned, largely because he believed in the pre-existence and transmigration of souls, and apokatastasis, or universal reconciliation, ideas which were discussed among some patristic writers but which were later rejected as heretical... However, in recent years the idea has found some reconsideration[4] especially among Restorationist Christian groups. [...]

As in the beginning all intelligent beings were united to God, Origen also held out the possibility, though he did not assert so definitively, that in the end all beings, perhaps even the arch-fiend Satan,[7] would be reconciled to God in what is called the apokatastasis ("restitution").

The words of Eru quoted by Findegil could be interpreted in different ways, thus we cannot say if the universal reconciliation is Eru's design but there might be such possibility and in that case Sauron is not excluded - presumably, after the end of Arda and Middle Earth. Before that, as Tolkien himself stated somewhere else, Sauron (and Saruman too) was sentenced to be present in the world until its end as a powerless spirit. May be we can imagine future adherents finding their way around to communicate with these spirits, obtaining some kind of important knowledge... Why not?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Dark Lord

Haha, you make me laugh.

Let me put it this way, in complete honesty.

If I was in ME while Sauron was around, I would help him as much as I can, if he was destroyed, I would try to bring him back.

Seriously. I would devote my life to him.

Now, if he was a real God, I would worship him. Judge me if you will, but I love him. Haha.

Worship a merciless genocidal megalomaniac intent on destroying basic freedoms and wiping out whole civilizations? Considering there was a dearth of qualified psychotherapists in 3rd Age Middle-earth, I am not certain of any good outcome of such mindless idolatry.

Originally Posted by Dark Lord

He could even rename the 'main' ending to the 'real' ending and call the second ending the 'fake' ending so people would understand its not really the real one, plus, it should make some other people happy, who are sadistic and like the bad guys to win, like me.

Are sadists ever truly happy? The terms seem incongruous.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Worship a merciless genocidal megalomaniac intent on destroying basic freedoms and wiping out whole civilizations? Considering there was a dearth of qualified psychotherapists in 3rd Age Middle-earth, I am not certain of any good outcome of such mindless idolatry.

Indeed, backing Sauron didn't work out so well for anyone who chose to follow him. Loyalty to that second-rate Morgoth cost the Númenóreans what was pretty near an idyllic life for Men on Middle-earth.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Are sadists ever truly happy? The terms seem incongruous.

Peter Jackson seems quite content.