Melian among the maia

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Seduction implies an active part one takes on another and has a negative connotation.

For me anything to do with Thingol has a negative connotation. And yes I know, I just couldn't resist the temptation to spread some Thingol hate. I need to stop before I become old and bitter.

Originally Posted by Saurondil

Which makes one wonder what would have happened if the Sons of Feanor had not killed Dior the Fair - his death may have been a far greater disaster than appears on the surface; he may not be as minor as the space he occupies in the Sil might suggest.

I'm afraid I don't quite follow you here - can you explain?

Originally Posted by Saurondil

(IMHO, this pattern of the higher marrying the lower can be seen elsewhere.)

Hey cool! Correct me if this is just an easy stereotype I've accepted without thinking, but I seem to recall it was more typical of men than of women to marry lower in European history. Which makes the fact that with Tolkien it's the other way round... something. I wonder if it's been researched. (Yes, you can tell I finished the first draft of my thesis today.) Anyway sorry, these are late night ramblings.

[Inziladun]

Belegorn's remark brings the question of the purpose of the "spell" that was laid on Thingol when he and Melian met. And who was responsible?

To the second question, I would say Melian did it. We later see Morgoth having the power to arrest physical change in Húrin (he could not die while Morgoth's power was on him), so it seems plausible Melian could have had a similar ability. And it seems the spell was for Thingol alone.

[Melian] spoke no word; but being filled with love Elwë came to her and took her hand, and straightaway a spell was laid on him, so that they stood thus...

But why? Some sort of "enhancement" or ennoblement for Elwë, to prepare him for being the spouse of a divine being? He is obviously changed when next seen by his followers.

[Elwë's] people gathered about him in joy, and they were amazed; for fair and noble as he had been, now he appeared as it were a lord of the Maiar...

The Silmarillion Of Eldamar

So he seemed to have been elevated from his previous stature. Was that just a requirement for matrimony? Sheesh. Women always want to change a man...

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

For me anything to do with Thingol has a negative connotation. And yes I know, I just couldn't resist the temptation to spread some Thingol hate. I need to stop before I become old and bitter.


I'm afraid I don't quite follow you here - can you explain?

## This happens a lot LOL

The point is, that with the three later unions, we learn that important goods came of them....but I've just realised that I mistakenly thought Dior's parents were not Beren & Luthien, whereas they definitely were. Sorry about that

The speculation may have something to be said for it even so, but would be irrelevant to the pattern of unions. Sorry about the confusion. I hope that clears things up.

As for Thingol, he is definitely one of my favourite characters - but so are Maedhros & Maeglin (& Feanor).

Originally Posted by Inziladun

But why? Some sort of "enhancement" or ennoblement for Elwë, to prepare him for being the spouse of a divine being? He is obviously changed when next seen by his followers.

## Ennoblement, or elevation or improvement, does seem to be a theme in the history of Arda: the Elves are "ennobled" by being brought to Valinor, the Numenoreans are "ennobled" by their friendship with the Elves, the Men of Middle Earth are "ennobled" by contact with the Numenoreans. And there is more than a hint of it in TLOTR. And it works the other way too - Morgoth ruins everything & everyone he comes in contact with - himself most of all. If the Numenoreans had been patient (as the messengers of the Valar advised), they might have "ennobled" all those enslaved to Sauron, and he might have fallen for ever much sooner, w/o the destruction of Numenor and a lot of other bad stuff.

FWIW, ennoblement of this sort would fit nicely with the Catholic notion that grace perfects, and does not destroy, nature (& Tolkien was a Catholic) - the change in Thingol would be a good illustration of the idea. If Thingol had remained as he was, something might have happened to him analogous to what the Numenoreans would have suffered, had they lived among the Valar:

"For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.'"

Which is what happened to the Ringwraiths - except that they "crackled, withered, and went out" when the Barad-dur fell. So much for the promises of Sauron in the Akallabeth; in a lesser way, the gifts given to the Numenoreans "withered", slowly, when they rejected the Valar & the Elves. But by being with Melian, Thingol was "elevated" from being an Elf (albeit one who had seen the Trees & the Valar), to being a "Mairinised" Elf. Maybe that long time with her alone was the preparation he needed for the rest of his life with her.

If Sauron or Morgoth had come in full force against Doriath, I doubt Melian could have held them off indefinitely - I think she is more like Yavanna among the Valar than like Tulkas. Though she seems even more like Varda, overall: not a warlike Maia, not "technological" like Aule (& the Maiar Sauron & Saruman, who were of his "people"), but both creative & regal. IIRC, there is a close relation between the native endowments & character of members of the Ainur OTOH, and their "range of effective action" OTO. So perhaps her gifts gave her great power in certain respects - but not in others.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Saurondil

If Sauron or Morgoth had come in full force against Doriath, I doubt Melian could have held them off indefinitely - I think she is more like Yavanna among the Valar than like Tulkas.

What's interesting is that the force Melkor had brought together to overrun Beleriand and it's other king Thingol was utterly destroyed by Feanor and his sons and they were the lesser group of the Noldor who had come to Beleriand as the greater numbers were with Fingolfin who had not yet came.

"from it returned all the hosts that he had prepared for the CONQUEST OF BELERIAND no more than a HANDFUL OF LEAVES." [Sil, p. 124]

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

What's interesting is that the force Melkor had brought together to overrun Beleriand and it's other king Thingol was utterly destroyed by Feanor and his sons and they were the lesser group of the Noldor who had come to Beleriand as the greater numbers were with Fingolfin who had not yet came.

"from it returned all the hosts that he had prepared for the CONQUEST OF BELERIAND no more than a HANDFUL OF LEAVES." [Sil, p. 124]

## Maybe Feanor (& by extension, his sons) were sufficiently (to coin a phrase) "fired up"; like Hurin at the Nirnaeth, killing his 70 orcs. Tolkien may have meant the desperate courage of both, against impossible odds, to be a version of the battle-fury (or "joy of battle") of the Viking berserker - as shown by Theoden & Eomer at the Pelennor. When the odds are desperate, and victory is slipping out of one's grasp/totally out of the question, it's all the more necessary, not less, to go down fighting. Feanor's problem (or part of it), is (to use an Old English term Tolkien refers to at length) ofermod, arrogance:

http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/...es/ofermod.htm

Only someone very arrogant could seriously think of taking on Melkor the Morgoth. OTOH, this kind of stubborn pride has the advantage of nerving the person who has it to keep fighting, even though defeat is staring him in the face. As this courage can be had without pride - as Frodo & Sam & Aragorn show - ISTM that the desperate courage of Feanor shows us something of the tragedy of Feanor: he has great strengths - but his Morgoth-like arrogance warps them, to his destruction & that of those near him. His strength, from being creative, becomes destructive - unlike that of Melian.

Feanor comes across as violent and impulsive, which is fine for a warrior (if he is warrior, & nothing more); "serene" & "peaceful" are two words that don't fit him at all; but they might well describe Melian. She's not passive - though her strength is the kind that can be confused with passivity. Though he is very wise in craft and lore, he has none of Melian's insight into the hearts of Elves & men (another respect in which Galadriel resembles her). He is alarmingly similar (in some ways) to Morgoth & Sauron - perhaps his hatred of Morgoth was (in part) hatred of something he saw in himself. Which may be why Galadriel rejected him even in Valinor.

"The light of Aman was not yet dimmed in their eyes, and they were strong and swift, and deadly in anger, and their swords were long and terrible" - that would have helped Feanor & those with him: as well as his own qualities, his being newly come from Valinor helped to make him formidable.

[Belegorn]

Regarding Hurin's feat, I don't want to overstate it because Morgoth did want him taken alive, "they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth" [Sil, p. 238] So I would say he killed alot of those orcs/trolls because they were not necessarily bent on killing him. I think this impetus was shown with the orcs hands/arms still grasping him even though they were no longer attached to the Orcs bodies.

"the Orcs GRAPPLED him with their hands, which CLUNG TO HIM STILL though he HEWED OFF their ARMS" [p. 238]

Feanor himself, whether from Valinor or not was said the be the greatest of the Children of Iluvatar.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Feanor himself, whether from Valinor or not was said the be the greatest of the Children of Iluvatar.

In The Silmarillion is stated that Fëanor was the most "subtle in mind" and "skilled in hand", though there are far more (and more important, I think) standards upon which "greatness" should be judged.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Saurondil

The point is, that with the three later unions, we learn that important goods came of them....but I've just realised that I mistakenly thought Dior's parents were not Beren & Luthien, whereas they definitely were. Sorry about that

Okay, that's what made me wonder. He was married and had three children anyway by the time he was killed so I suppose he had played his part. The sons of Fëanor killing Elwing would've been a bigger problem, though, because it was through her that a streak of divine blood eventually passed on to the Children of Ilúvatar.

As for Thingol, he is definitely one of my favourite characters - but so are Maedhros & Maeglin (& Feanor).

See, I like villains too (points down to signature) - I've just always had a strong, inexplicable aversion to the Sindar.

But by being with Melian, Thingol was "elevated" from being an Elf (albeit one who had seen the Trees & the Valar), to being a "Mairinised" Elf. Maybe that long time with her alone was the preparation he needed for the rest of his life with her.

I've always interpreted Melian's despair at Thingol's death the way that they didn't meet again and their marriage was over, but of course there's a chance he gets a new hröa after some chilling in Mandos.
He might even have spent all of the Second Age happily in Valinor. *involuntary shudder*

If Sauron or Morgoth had come in full force against Doriath, I doubt Melian could have held them off indefinitely

True about Morgoth - but then, the fact that he didn't is quite telling because they were clearly worried about Doriath. Perhaps they knew their losses would be so heavy it wouldn't be worth the trouble. I'm not so sure about Sauron because even Lúthien (who, it can be argued, wasn't as powerful as Melian) put him down single-handedly.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Another example of the reverse kind would be Faramir with Eowen. He was a High Man, of the Steward's House. Also in the House of the Princes at Belfast an Elf woman was supposed to have been engaged with a Numenorean ancestor named Imrazor. I'll give one more reverse example that resulted in the Kin Strife which was dreadful for Gondor in the long run, that of the hereditary King of the Southern Kingdom, Valacar, who married Vidumavi of the Northmen. When he died his son by her, Eldacar, became involved in this war in Gondor. This also resulted in the mixing of alot of the High Men with Middle Men as their numbers lessened.

This might even deserve a thread of its own, unless there already is one. Yes, the likes of Faramir and Valacar exist but they seem to be the minority.

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Regarding Hurin's feat, I don't want to overstate it because Morgoth did want him taken alive, "they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth" [Sil, p. 238] So I would say he killed alot of those orcs/trolls because they were not necessarily bent on killing him. I think this impetus was shown with the orcs hands/arms still grasping him even though they were no longer attached to the Orcs bodies.

"the Orcs GRAPPLED him with their hands, which CLUNG TO HIM STILL though he HEWED OFF their ARMS" [p. 238]

Feanor himself, whether from Valinor or not was said the be the greatest of the Children of Iluvatar.

## The "omniscient" readers share the knowledge of Arda available to Tolkien, & can know Morgoth wanted Hurin taken alive - but did Hurin know this ? I don't think his heroism is diminished by fighting against enemies who (for their own self-preservation, if they survived) could not afford to kill him. Humanly speaking, he may have been in pretty much the same sort of fix as Isildur at the Gladden Fields: the only significant difference I can see is, that the orcs who killed Isildur's company wanted to do so, even if those orcs were unaware of what made them so ferocious. The will of the Ring, the will of the orcs, & the wills of Isildur & his company, are all different wills, but all are means of developing events.

If it was intended by Eru that Isildur should be killed, now that he had the Ring, that would not make the human activity of Isildur in trying to fight off the attack any less courageous. The intentions of the Valar may operate at a different level from those of beings in Arda. Maybe that is applicable here: the action of Hurin is still heroic, and undiminished by Morgoth's will that he be taken alive.

I know I'm making metaphysical & theological assumptions

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Saurondil

did Hurin know this ? I don't think his heroism is diminished by fighting against enemies who (for their own self-preservation, if they survived) could not afford to kill him.

I do not think his ignorance of Morgoth's intentions diminished his courage, but it can be factored into what happened there. He is fighting for his life, they are trying to take him in alive. I think if Morgoth wanted them all wiped out Hurin would have fought just as hard but without the same outcome.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Hey cool! Correct me if this is just an easy stereotype I've accepted without thinking, but I seem to recall it was more typical of men than of women to marry lower in European history.

Another example of the reverse kind would be Faramir with Eowen. He was a High Man, of the Steward's House. Also in the House of the Princes at Belfast an Elf woman was supposed to have been engaged with a Numenorean ancestor named Imrazor. I'll give one more reverse example that resulted in the Kin Strife which was dreadful for Gondor in the long run, that of the hereditary King of the Southern Kingdom, Valacar, who married Vidumavi of the Northmen. When he died his son by her, Eldacar, became involved in this war in Gondor. This also resulted in the mixing of alot of the High Men with Middle Men as their numbers lessened.