Melian among the maia

[Aganzir]

It is beyond me why such a powerful Maia would use her powers to seduce Thingol of all people. Sheesh!

Anyway, if the gods would leave their business, and the birds of Valinor their mirth, and the fountains cease to flow when she sang in Lórien, she can't be a completely ordinary Maia.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

It is beyond me why such a powerful Maia would use her powers to seduce Thingol of all people. Sheesh!

Seduction implies an active part one takes on another and has a negative connotation. Thingol just ran into her while she was doing her thing in the forest and he even walked up to her and took her hand. It was love at first sight for both of them, and first sight was sure long lasting, "they STOOD THUS while long years were measured by the wheeling stars above them; and the trees of Nan Elmoth grew TALL and DARK before they spoke any word." [Sil, p. 58]

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Seduction implies an active part one takes on another and has a negative connotation. Thingol just ran into her while she was doing her thing in the forest and he even walked up to her and took her hand. It was love at first sight for both of them, and first sight was sure long lasting, "they STOOD THUS while long years were measured by the wheeling stars above them; and the trees of Nan Elmoth grew TALL and DARK before they spoke any word." [Sil, p. 58]

It seems clear that the Thingol/Melian pairing was something, like the later finding of the One Ring by Bilbo Baggins, that was meant to occur. From that union came Lúthien Tinúviel, who played such a major role in not only the history of the First Age, but whose existence had an impact all the way to the time of the War of the Ring.

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It seems clear that the Thingol/Melian pairing was something, like the later finding of the One Ring by Bilbo Baggins, that was meant to occur. From that union came Lúthien Tinúviel, who played such a major role in not only the history of the First Age, but whose existence had an impact all the way to the time of the War of the Ring.

## If it was "meant to occur", that would make a lot of sense: the union between them would then be an example of the pattern of unions between spouses of different kinds, in which the female is always of a nobler/higher "kind" than the male. The pattern as a whole does not begin with Luthien & Beren. Instead it would be:

Melian - Thingol
Luthien - Beren
Idril - Tuor
Arwen - Aragorn

(IMHO, this pattern of the higher marrying the lower can be seen elsewhere.) Which makes one wonder what would have happened if the Sons of Feanor had not killed Dior the Fair - his death may have been a far greater disaster than appears on the surface; he may not be as minor as the space he occupies in the Sil might suggest.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Seduction implies an active part one takes on another and has a negative connotation.

For me anything to do with Thingol has a negative connotation. And yes I know, I just couldn't resist the temptation to spread some Thingol hate. I need to stop before I become old and bitter.

Originally Posted by Saurondil

Which makes one wonder what would have happened if the Sons of Feanor had not killed Dior the Fair - his death may have been a far greater disaster than appears on the surface; he may not be as minor as the space he occupies in the Sil might suggest.

I'm afraid I don't quite follow you here - can you explain?

Originally Posted by Saurondil

(IMHO, this pattern of the higher marrying the lower can be seen elsewhere.)

Hey cool! Correct me if this is just an easy stereotype I've accepted without thinking, but I seem to recall it was more typical of men than of women to marry lower in European history. Which makes the fact that with Tolkien it's the other way round... something. I wonder if it's been researched. (Yes, you can tell I finished the first draft of my thesis today.) Anyway sorry, these are late night ramblings.

[Inziladun]

Belegorn's remark brings the question of the purpose of the "spell" that was laid on Thingol when he and Melian met. And who was responsible?

To the second question, I would say Melian did it. We later see Morgoth having the power to arrest physical change in Húrin (he could not die while Morgoth's power was on him), so it seems plausible Melian could have had a similar ability. And it seems the spell was for Thingol alone.

[Melian] spoke no word; but being filled with love Elwë came to her and took her hand, and straightaway a spell was laid on him, so that they stood thus...

But why? Some sort of "enhancement" or ennoblement for Elwë, to prepare him for being the spouse of a divine being? He is obviously changed when next seen by his followers.

[Elwë's] people gathered about him in joy, and they were amazed; for fair and noble as he had been, now he appeared as it were a lord of the Maiar...

The Silmarillion Of Eldamar

So he seemed to have been elevated from his previous stature. Was that just a requirement for matrimony? Sheesh. Women always want to change a man...

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

For me anything to do with Thingol has a negative connotation. And yes I know, I just couldn't resist the temptation to spread some Thingol hate. I need to stop before I become old and bitter.


I'm afraid I don't quite follow you here - can you explain?

## This happens a lot LOL

The point is, that with the three later unions, we learn that important goods came of them....but I've just realised that I mistakenly thought Dior's parents were not Beren & Luthien, whereas they definitely were. Sorry about that

The speculation may have something to be said for it even so, but would be irrelevant to the pattern of unions. Sorry about the confusion. I hope that clears things up.

As for Thingol, he is definitely one of my favourite characters - but so are Maedhros & Maeglin (& Feanor).

Originally Posted by Inziladun

But why? Some sort of "enhancement" or ennoblement for Elwë, to prepare him for being the spouse of a divine being? He is obviously changed when next seen by his followers.

## Ennoblement, or elevation or improvement, does seem to be a theme in the history of Arda: the Elves are "ennobled" by being brought to Valinor, the Numenoreans are "ennobled" by their friendship with the Elves, the Men of Middle Earth are "ennobled" by contact with the Numenoreans. And there is more than a hint of it in TLOTR. And it works the other way too - Morgoth ruins everything & everyone he comes in contact with - himself most of all. If the Numenoreans had been patient (as the messengers of the Valar advised), they might have "ennobled" all those enslaved to Sauron, and he might have fallen for ever much sooner, w/o the destruction of Numenor and a lot of other bad stuff.

FWIW, ennoblement of this sort would fit nicely with the Catholic notion that grace perfects, and does not destroy, nature (& Tolkien was a Catholic) - the change in Thingol would be a good illustration of the idea. If Thingol had remained as he was, something might have happened to him analogous to what the Numenoreans would have suffered, had they lived among the Valar:

"For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.'"

Which is what happened to the Ringwraiths - except that they "crackled, withered, and went out" when the Barad-dur fell. So much for the promises of Sauron in the Akallabeth; in a lesser way, the gifts given to the Numenoreans "withered", slowly, when they rejected the Valar & the Elves. But by being with Melian, Thingol was "elevated" from being an Elf (albeit one who had seen the Trees & the Valar), to being a "Mairinised" Elf. Maybe that long time with her alone was the preparation he needed for the rest of his life with her.

If Sauron or Morgoth had come in full force against Doriath, I doubt Melian could have held them off indefinitely - I think she is more like Yavanna among the Valar than like Tulkas. Though she seems even more like Varda, overall: not a warlike Maia, not "technological" like Aule (& the Maiar Sauron & Saruman, who were of his "people"), but both creative & regal. IIRC, there is a close relation between the native endowments & character of members of the Ainur OTOH, and their "range of effective action" OTO. So perhaps her gifts gave her great power in certain respects - but not in others.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Saurondil

If Sauron or Morgoth had come in full force against Doriath, I doubt Melian could have held them off indefinitely - I think she is more like Yavanna among the Valar than like Tulkas.

What's interesting is that the force Melkor had brought together to overrun Beleriand and it's other king Thingol was utterly destroyed by Feanor and his sons and they were the lesser group of the Noldor who had come to Beleriand as the greater numbers were with Fingolfin who had not yet came.

"from it returned all the hosts that he had prepared for the CONQUEST OF BELERIAND no more than a HANDFUL OF LEAVES." [Sil, p. 124]

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Hey cool! Correct me if this is just an easy stereotype I've accepted without thinking, but I seem to recall it was more typical of men than of women to marry lower in European history.

Another example of the reverse kind would be Faramir with Eowen. He was a High Man, of the Steward's House. Also in the House of the Princes at Belfast an Elf woman was supposed to have been engaged with a Numenorean ancestor named Imrazor. I'll give one more reverse example that resulted in the Kin Strife which was dreadful for Gondor in the long run, that of the hereditary King of the Southern Kingdom, Valacar, who married Vidumavi of the Northmen. When he died his son by her, Eldacar, became involved in this war in Gondor. This also resulted in the mixing of alot of the High Men with Middle Men as their numbers lessened.