Origins of the Great Goblin

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Me too.
"There in the shadows on a large flat stone sat a tremendous goblin with a huge head." (p. 60)
I always took 'tremendous' as meaning large but also awe-inspiring, impressive, intimidating etc. Similarly it's his head specifically that is pointed out as being "huge"; I considered this as meaning that his head was particularly big in proportion to the rest of his body - which may have already been large.
I think these comparisons are interesting (I've only read Book 1 of Lost Tales, been meaning to start a thread about it actually) but I would imagine that they were probably unintentional on Professor Tolkien's part.

Agreed. The Golbins are a warlike race, I have difficulty imagining that an actually fat, out of shape leader would be able to command the neccecary respect to keep his title (or the neccecary fighting prowess to defend it if challenged) The best food argument still might hold, but only if you assume that goblins are so poorly fed that stunting due to malunutition was basically universal for all but the top of the top (a sort of version of the Chulplex society from Avrham Davidson's Masters of the Maze)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Agreed. The Golbins are a warlike race, I have difficulty imagining that an actually fat, out of shape leader would be able to command the neccecary respect to keep his title (or the neccecary fighting prowess to defend it if challenged) The best food argument still might hold, but only if you assume that goblins are so poorly fed that stunting due to malunutition was basically universal for all but the top of the top (a sort of version of the Chulplex society from Avrham Davidson's Masters of the Maze)

I wonder if the Great Goblin might not have been a uruk, rare in the North, which would have given him a greater fear-factor among smaller breeds of orcs.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I wonder if the Great Goblin might not have been a uruk, rare in the North, which would have given him a greater fear-factor among smaller breeds of orcs.

I had always considered the Great Goblin to be an Uruk as well. The scenario is plausible, given that these larger Orcs appeared out of Mordor in 2475 (Osgiliath was overwhelmed and destroyed). In addition, the Tale of Years indicates that soon after, Orcs began making strongholds in the Misty Mountains. The TOY specifically states "Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures." Almost three hundred years later, there is an invasion of Eriador and the Shire is attacked (1747) and Bandobras Took beheads the large Orkish leader Golfimbul (fimbul in Old Norse means "great"), a chieftain of the Orcs of Mount Gram.

Taken in context, Sauron repeoples the Misty Mountains, and given the bellicose and belligerent attitude of Orcs (the Orkish hierarchy in Mordor always goes from biggest down to smallest), who but Uruks would lead such an invasion? It would seem to me that a ruling elite of Uruk-hai was maintained since the first invasion of the Misty Mountains, and that Azog and Bolg were also members of an Uruk dynasty.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Makes sense: Thereupon Azog came forth, and he was a great Orc with a huge iron-clad head, and yet agile and strong. The Moria-orcs that were among Merrry's and Pippin's captors were described as "smaller goblins" compared to both Ugluk and Grishnakh (also an uruk); not I think to be described as "great orcs." Similarly "some" of those who attacked the Company in Moria were "large and evil: black uruks of Mordor," distinct from the locals.

[Rumil]

In one of the earlier texts there's reference to Boldogs, who appear to be sort of minor spirits and followers of Morgoth. IIRC they were interbred with orcs. Perhaps the Great Goblin was one in whom the Boldog ancestry 'ran true' to some extent?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rumil

In one of the earlier texts there's reference to Boldogs, who appear to be sort of minor spirits and followers of Morgoth. IIRC they were interbred with orcs. Perhaps the Great Goblin was one in whom the Boldog ancestry 'ran true' to some extent?

Even if the story of Boldog's raid on Doriath is taken as canon, I don't think the Great Goblin need be elevated to that extent. Unless of course, Boldog's race is simply shown in the uruks as generally larger and stronger than "regular" Orcs.

[Rumil]

Could be Inzil.

I've always thought of the orcs as a bit genetically unstable if you like, due to their dubious origins and variety of shapes and sizes.

For example cats look pretty much like cats, some bigger, some smaller, but all cat-like. But dogs can look very different - Chihuahua, Great Dane, Bulldog, Collie etc.