I Hate Feanor

[Nikkolas]

And Sauron was a victim too at one point I bet. Nothing is evil in the beginning.

But Feanor foresook any sympathy when he dragged a bunch of innocent elves to their deaths. The Sil states in no uncertain terms that Feanor in his speech motivating everyone to leave, was repeating Melkor's lies. His supposed great enemy fed him falsehoods and yet he chose to regurgitate them so as to gather an army to assail Melkor with. A nice disposable host of elves so he could reclaim his pretty gems.

The fact is Feanor did not lead the exodus of Valinor for any even vaguely noble end. Everything he told to his followers was a pack of lies and an excuse to get them to come with him and thus increase his chances of defeating Melkor.

I do hold him accountable for every elf who died after leaving the Blessed Realm because they died needlessly and for one elf's supreme selfishness.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

The fact is Feanor did not lead the exodus of Valinor for any even vaguely noble end. Everything he told to his followers was a pack of lies and an excuse to get them to come with him and thus increase his chances of defeating Melkor.

I do hold him accountable for every elf who died after leaving the Blessed Realm because they died needlessly and for one elf's supreme selfishness.

I think I read The Silmarillion a little more dispassionately than you do. Nonetheless, I see Fëanor as more of an enabler rather than originator. We have to remember that for a long time he avoided Melkor ("he held no converse with him and took no counsel from him")("Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor") until Melkor came himself to Formenos.

Additionally, discontent was sown first in the hearts of other Noldor: "Visions he would conjure in their hearts of the mighty realms that they could have ruled at their own will, in power and freedom in the East". It was only when this rumour 'got about' that "Fiercest burned the new flame of desire for freedom and wider realms in the eager heart of Fëanor; and Melkor laughed in his secrecy, for to that mark his lies had been addressed, hating Fëanor above all" ("Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor").

Upon their exile, then, Fëanor "urged the Noldor to follow him and by their own prowess to win freedom and great realms in the lands of the East, before it was too late; for he echoed the lies of Melkor" ("Of the Flight of the Noldor"). In that regard I think that Fëanor was only really telling the Noldor what they already believed and wanted to hear, and as such the theft of the Silmarils was by and large an excuse for them to do what they already longed for. The recovery of these holy artefacts was a pretense for them to seek what they desired, power and kingship in Middle-earth, which was something they struggled to do, rather disastrously, throughout the First and Second Ages.

Again, I don't feel sympathy for Fëanor, but I still believe that he was not alone in his crimes, and where blame does not lie at the feet of Melkor himself much of it lies with the dissident Noldor at large.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Galadriel
Firstly, let us not call Feanor a villain. Morgoth is a villain. Sauron is a villain. Gothmog, Glaurung, and etc are villains. Not Feanor. He is not an evil guy. He is not even a bad guy. He's just a mad one. Well, at least partially. And many geniuses of the real world are partially mad.

"For the great Gaels of Ireland,
Are the men that God made mad.
For all their wars are merry,
And all their songs are sad."

(G. K. Chesterton). Of course, a British Catholic theological writer and poet, and contemporary of Tolkien.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

But Feanor foresook any sympathy when he dragged a bunch of innocent elves to their deaths.

I'm not sure about the others being "innocent elves". For example, Galadriel "had a marvelous gift of insight into the minds of others" and in Fëanor "she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared". Interestingly enough, "she DID NOT perceive that the shadow of the SAME EVIL had fallen upon the minds of ALL the NOLDOR., and upon her OWN." [U.T., p. 241] So whereas, like you she sees this stain in Fëanor, it is clear that the stain has touched most/all of the Noldor.

In Valinor, believe it or not, in his relationship with Melkor, Fëanor "held NO CONVERSE with him and took NO COUNSEL FROM him" [Sil, p. 71] whereas everyone else did, "both the Valar and the Eldar had profit from his aid and counsel, if they sought it" [70] and among the Noldor "some harkened to his words that it would have been better for them never to have heard" [71]. I think maybe it should also be noted that, "none of the Eldalië ever hated Melkor more than Fëanor" even "snared though he was in the webs of Melkor's malice against the Valar"[71].

Lastly it is said:

"they [gods] mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Fëanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil." [Sil, p. 112]

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

The fact is Feanor did not lead the exodus of Valinor for any even vaguely noble end. Everything he told to his followers was a pack of lies and an excuse to get them to come with him and thus increase his chances of defeating Melkor.

Perhaps. I did not say he was a good person, I only insist that he is a Great person - with a capital G. It takes a truly Great person to raise all his people for a not directly necessary cause. The rebellion against the Valar was a side effect of the hunt for the Silmarilli, but even Morgoth would not have been able to do it so completely.

So, while I completely agree that the consequences of Feanor's actions were devastating, and that he is not a RL or ME role model, I think that he still is a Great person.

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

I do hold him accountable for every elf who died after leaving the Blessed Realm because they died needlessly and for one elf's supreme selfishness.

What do you think of Fingon, or at least Gwindor, then? If it hadn't been for the rash assault, maybe the Nirnaeth Arnoediad would have had a different name. But no one blames either one of them, though they do hold responsibility. I do understand that in this case the deathblow was struck by the treachery of Men, not by the assault, but in Feanor's case I believe the deathblow was the Curse and the Kinslaying, not Feanor's words in Tirion. And in both cases, what came after - came after. Yes, they are responsible for it, but that's not a reason to hate them.

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

"For the great Gaels of Ireland,
Are the men that God made mad.
For all their wars are merry,
And all their songs are sad."

(G. K. Chesterton). Of course, a British Catholic theological writer and poet, and contemporary of Tolkien.

Very elegantly said. There must be some connection between my admiration of the poem and my admiration of tragic heroes *cough*Feanor*cough*Turin*cough*

And speaking of the abovementioned tragic heroes that I passionately defend, I just want to ask you all a question out of pure curiosity about the matter. When you read the stories, Turin and Feanor and the like are presented as heroes - very flawed heroes, but heroes nonetheless. Moreover, their contemopraries regarded them as such; perhaps not everyone and all the time, but overall both end up with pplenty of deference from those who have just outlived them. And the later Ages speak of both as great heroes too. Middle Earth and Middle Earth history seems to have accepted the Greatness despite the wrongs. But, as readers, you still think that the wrongs of deeds and character and consequences outweigh the sheer scope of those three things? As in, that they are Great people despite?

[Morthoron]

Fëanor was an artistic genius, and as such was much like others of his ilk, too passionate and prone to rage for his own good.

I can't say that I hated the character, but felt more disappointed in his failings; but everything he ever did was on a grand scale. Even in death he proved larger than life, his inner fire consuming him.

As Neil Young once said, "Better to burn out than to fade away."

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Perhaps. I did not say he was a good person, I only insist that he is a Great person - with a capital G. It takes a truly Great person to raise all his people for a not directly necessary cause. The rebellion against the Valar was a side effect of the hunt for the Silmarilli, but even Morgoth would not have been able to do it so completely.

So, while I completely agree that the consequences of Feanor's actions were devastating, and that he is not a RL or ME role model, I think that he still is a Great person.

I concur. And like many of that kind, he was more willful than evil.

Sauron was both Great (is there one entity that has had a larger and longer-lasting effect on ME?) and evil (I mean really, really evil- the kind of guy who tortured people because he liked it.)

Feanor was Great (many reasons given already) and willful (I'll have my way, period!).

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I concur. And like many of that kind, he was more willful than evil.

Sauron was both Great (is there one entity that has had a larger and longer-lasting effect on ME?) and evil (I mean really, really evil- the kind of guy who tortured people because he liked it.)

Feanor was Great (many reasons given already) and willful (I'll have my way, period!).

Agreed on all points.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Perhaps. I did not say he was a good person, I only insist that he is a Great person - with a capital G. It takes a truly Great person to raise all his people for a not directly necessary cause.

A great person, or a great orator? Certainly the Noldor, as talented craftsmen and loremasters, are capale of rational and sophisticated thought; as you noted, the cause Fëanor gave them was not directly necessary, and perhaps bordered on foolishness. Fëanor's speeches, in my opinion, have the power to diminish such rationality, and given the circumstances (a paradise that has been marred with blood, lies and death) which affect not only Fëanor but the Noldor generally, the latter would perhaps be easier to manipulate than usual.

That being said, I too find Fëanor to be a fascinating character. I do not think he is evil, though he does evil deeds. I am sympathetic to the fact that he was, initially, the only person in Valinor to be so gravely affected by loss and bitterness, possibly exacerbated by the thought that he might have caused his mother's death. This is, of course, no excuse for mass murder and sedition, and that he could lead his supposedly beloved sons into such great peril is quite startling. At this point I am not sure whether a great desire for revenge and insanity are the same for him.

[Belegorn]

I think, Fëanor's great love was to his father. His death clearly hurt him, and no less by the being he hated most in Arda, Morgoth, "none of the Eldalië ever hated Melkor more than Fëanor" [Sil, p. 71]. It is known that Finwë gave all of his love and most of his thought to Fëanor who he went into banishment with after Fëanor pulled a sword out on Fingolfin. As to Fëanor's own feelings to his father:

"his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?" [p. 88]

There were some circumstances at work against Fëanor that were a bit abnormal. His mother died and his father remarried and wanted more children. It's said, "if Finwë had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son, the courses of Fëanor would have been otherwise, and great evil might have been prevented" [Sil, p. 69] Also he created of the most magnificent gems in Arda that were envied by the mightiest being in Arda.

If he held those feelings about his mother's death [that he was the cause] he held them also for his father's demise, thinking "in the madness of his rage and grief that had he been at Formenos his strength would have availed more than to be slain also, as Melkor had purposed." [Sil, p. 88]

Again, his circumstances were a bit abnormal. He loses both his parents in the land of the deathless. He lost his greatest creations. I think in the end he loved his father more than his sons, and even though he knew his sons could never hope to topple Melkor he told them to keep the Oath and avenge him. I guess it's something to do with his greatest love and his greatest hate.