Thorin's Heir

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It must be said in Thrain's defence that the whole point of the war, really, was to clear the Orcs out of the Hithaeglir entirely, from Khazad-dum to Moria, and to complete the reclamation of the ancient mansions Thror had been killed rather foolhardily trying to achieve. Marshal Zhukov could be forgiven for saying something like "Good. Berlin is ours."

The Balrog, however, rather nullified that last bit. But of course Thrain wasn't even aware of it; only Dain had seen it (if he 'saw' rather than felt it)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It must be said in Thrain's defence that the whole point of the war, really, was to clear the Orcs out of the Hithaeglir entirely, from Khazad-dum to Moria, and to complete the reclamation of the ancient mansions Thror had been killed rather foolhardily trying to achieve. Marshal Zhukov could be forgiven for saying something like "Good. Berlin is ours."

Actually, I think the point of the war was supposed to be vengeance for the killing of Thrór. Moria happened to be where Azog, the Dwarves "Most Wanted" was to be found, so that was the location of the last battle. It just seems curious that instead of saying something like "There, my father and the Eldest of our race is avenged", Thráin's mind turns toward property.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It must be said in Thrain's defence that the whole point of the war, really, was to clear the Orcs out of the Hithaeglir entirely, from Khazad-dum to Moria, and to complete the reclamation of the ancient mansions Thror had been killed rather foolhardily trying to achieve.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Actually, I think the point of the war was supposed to be vengeance for the killing of Thrór. Moria happened to be where Azog, the Dwarves "Most Wanted" was to be found, so that was the location of the last battle. It just seems curious that instead of saying something like "There, my father and the Eldest of our race is avenged", Thráin's mind turns toward property.

How then might we reconcile these two points? It's interesting that despite the fact that the Dwarves "assailed and sacked one by one all the strongholds of the Orcs that they could find from Gundabad to the Gladden" they apparently made no effort to resettle any part of the Misty Mountains, even their ancient holy site at Gundabad. I suppose at the end of the war they lacked the numbers to do so in any event. One of the Dwarves' greatest assets, however, was "the fire of their anger, as they hunted for Azog in every den under mountain." So vengeance was evidently still on their minds. Yet Thráin's heart was turned to Khazad-dûm and not to the honour of his father. Perhaps this was the Ring at work.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Did I really write "from Khazad-dum to Moria?" Oops. Read "from Gundabad to Moria."

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

How then might we reconcile these two points? It's interesting that despite the fact that the Dwarves "assailed and sacked one by one all the strongholds of the Orcs that they could find from Gundabad to the Gladden" they apparently made no effort to resettle any part of the Misty Mountains, even their ancient holy site at Gundabad. I suppose at the end of the war they lacked the numbers to do so in any event.

I have wondered about that myself. I am afraid the only answer I have is this is an inconsistency generated by Tolkien having written and published The Hobbit before writing LOTR. Since Tolkien had already written that the dwarves had gone back to Erebor in the end it limited his ability to write something that placed the dwarves in a new home before then, even if it would have made more sense.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I have wondered about that myself. I am afraid the only answer I have is this is an inconsistency generated by Tolkien having written and published The Hobbit before writing LOTR. Since Tolkien had already written that the dwarves had gone back to Erebor in the end it limited his ability to write something that placed the dwarves in a new home before then, even if it would have made more sense.

Well, keep in mind that the Dwarven army was made up of other houses as well, which had come to Thráin from other parts of Middle-earth. Those of Durin's house who remained in the West were very possibly, as Zigûr suggests, simply too depleted in numbers to resettle the Mountains.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Between the sack of Erebor and the war culminating in Azanulbizar, I can't imagine the House of Durin having much of a population left.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Between the sack of Erebor and the war culminating in Azanulbizar, I can't imagine the House of Durin having much of a population left.

You know what they say: heir today, gone tomorrow.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, keep in mind that the Dwarven army was made up of other houses as well, which had come to Thráin from other parts of Middle-earth. Those of Durin's house who remained in the West were very possibly, as Zigûr suggests, simply too depleted in numbers to resettle the Mountains.

That option doesn't seem to compute on deeper analysis.

Yes, their population was undoubtedly down but was it really down to the point that they couldn't have settled in an unoccupied spot they had recently liberated somewhere in the Misty Mountains? The implication of that would be that there were so few of them left they didn't have the ability to have a home anywhere. That would be nearly to the point of extinction, and even then you can still set up shop somewhere to wait for the end.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Yes, their population was undoubtedly down but was it really down to the point that they couldn't have settled in an unoccupied spot they had recently liberated somewhere in the Misty Mountains? The implication of that would be that there were so few of them left they didn't have the ability to have a home anywhere. That would be nearly to the point of extinction, and even then you can still set up shop somewhere to wait for the end.

They did find another home, but not in the Misty Mountains. It was after the Battle of Azanulbizar that Thráin led his people to the Ered Luin. I would think the reason for that location was the old history between the Dwarves and that mountain range, and it was also a pretty safe, quiet place for them.

One factor in that decision to avoid the Misty Mountains might have been the proximity of Dol Guldur. Oddly enough, Dol Guldur was indeed the final resting place of Thráin.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The Balrog, however, rather nullified that last bit. But of course Thrain wasn't even aware of it; only Dain had seen it (if he 'saw' rather than felt it)

As an aside to the main thread, given that Dain seemed to react so strongly to whatever it was that had happened I suspect that the Balrog was at least very near the gate.

As an example, the Fellowship didn't have a similar reaction until they were near or in the Balrog's presence.