Thorin's Heir

[Kuruharan]

Did his desire for vengeance on Smaug, one which apparently also occupied his thoughts while he was "engrossed in his crafts" preclude him from having an heir? Was he too focused on his stolen birthright to take an interest in marriage?

These are both likely to be the case.

Fíli was born in 2859, when Thorin was 113 years old.

I'm at work right now and without access to my books so I can't look up if Thorin had settled in the Blue Mountains during his prime marrying age. If they were still wandering to some degree during that time, that probably also played a role in Thorin not marrying.

If the odds of Dwarves reproducing are as low as they are purported to be (only one-third of the population women, and neither all women nor all men willing to marry), would the birth of a nephew have been fortuitous for a Dwarf King like Thorin, brooding on the wrongs done to his House?

Undoubtedly so. The birth of a nephew would probably be viewed as fortuitous even in the best of times.

One thing about Tolkien's conception of the dwarves that I have always found...not entirely well thought out, is their lackadaisical attitude toward their own continued existence. If females are rare, and consequently marriage and child raising as well, one would think that marriage and family would be something culturally valued and encouraged rather than being seemingly viewed as incidental.

[Inziladun]

I agree that Thorin was probably so bound up in thoughts of revenge on Smaug that marriage probably didn't seem to him to be very important. He also might have counted on the idea of Fili or Kili surviving to carry on the line.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

One thing about Tolkien's conception of the dwarves that I have always found...not entirely well thought out, is their lackadaisical attitude toward their own continued existence. If females are rare, and consequently marriage and child raising as well, one would think that marriage and family would be something culturally valued and encouraged rather than being seemingly viewed as incidental.

That would seem to be an inevitable factor in their decline. The Dwarves couldn't bide their time indefinitely like the Elves, nor did they have the urgency to procreate which was a trait of Men (and Hobbits). Dwarves seem from the start to have had more consideration for their crafts and wealth than themselves. Even after a war that encompassed all the House of Durin, as well as other Houses, (in which Thráin, Thorin, and Dáin fought), when Azog, the killer of Thrór was slain, what's Thráin's first thought? "Khazad-dûm is ours!"

[Inziladun]

Looking at it further, tunnel-vision focus on lineage rather than the well-being of the whole race might seem to be a sin common to both Dwarves and the Númenóreans. Both Arnor and Gondor had serious problems with the issue of who the rightful king was.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Even after a war that encompassed all the House of Durin, as well as other Houses, (in which Thráin, Thorin, and Dáin fought), when Azog, the killer of Thrór was slain, what's Thráin's first thought? "Khazad-dûm is ours!"

In his defense, he did have a son and had just fought a battle there.

I think that is a fairly natural reaction.

The Dwarves couldn't bide their time indefinitely like the Elves, nor did they have the urgency to procreate which was a trait of Men (and Hobbits).

I hadn't really thought about it from a "biological" perspective, but that is a good point.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It must be said in Thrain's defence that the whole point of the war, really, was to clear the Orcs out of the Hithaeglir entirely, from Khazad-dum to Moria, and to complete the reclamation of the ancient mansions Thror had been killed rather foolhardily trying to achieve. Marshal Zhukov could be forgiven for saying something like "Good. Berlin is ours."

The Balrog, however, rather nullified that last bit. But of course Thrain wasn't even aware of it; only Dain had seen it (if he 'saw' rather than felt it)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It must be said in Thrain's defence that the whole point of the war, really, was to clear the Orcs out of the Hithaeglir entirely, from Khazad-dum to Moria, and to complete the reclamation of the ancient mansions Thror had been killed rather foolhardily trying to achieve. Marshal Zhukov could be forgiven for saying something like "Good. Berlin is ours."

Actually, I think the point of the war was supposed to be vengeance for the killing of Thrór. Moria happened to be where Azog, the Dwarves "Most Wanted" was to be found, so that was the location of the last battle. It just seems curious that instead of saying something like "There, my father and the Eldest of our race is avenged", Thráin's mind turns toward property.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It must be said in Thrain's defence that the whole point of the war, really, was to clear the Orcs out of the Hithaeglir entirely, from Khazad-dum to Moria, and to complete the reclamation of the ancient mansions Thror had been killed rather foolhardily trying to achieve.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Actually, I think the point of the war was supposed to be vengeance for the killing of Thrór. Moria happened to be where Azog, the Dwarves "Most Wanted" was to be found, so that was the location of the last battle. It just seems curious that instead of saying something like "There, my father and the Eldest of our race is avenged", Thráin's mind turns toward property.

How then might we reconcile these two points? It's interesting that despite the fact that the Dwarves "assailed and sacked one by one all the strongholds of the Orcs that they could find from Gundabad to the Gladden" they apparently made no effort to resettle any part of the Misty Mountains, even their ancient holy site at Gundabad. I suppose at the end of the war they lacked the numbers to do so in any event. One of the Dwarves' greatest assets, however, was "the fire of their anger, as they hunted for Azog in every den under mountain." So vengeance was evidently still on their minds. Yet Thráin's heart was turned to Khazad-dûm and not to the honour of his father. Perhaps this was the Ring at work.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Did I really write "from Khazad-dum to Moria?" Oops. Read "from Gundabad to Moria."

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

How then might we reconcile these two points? It's interesting that despite the fact that the Dwarves "assailed and sacked one by one all the strongholds of the Orcs that they could find from Gundabad to the Gladden" they apparently made no effort to resettle any part of the Misty Mountains, even their ancient holy site at Gundabad. I suppose at the end of the war they lacked the numbers to do so in any event.

I have wondered about that myself. I am afraid the only answer I have is this is an inconsistency generated by Tolkien having written and published The Hobbit before writing LOTR. Since Tolkien had already written that the dwarves had gone back to Erebor in the end it limited his ability to write something that placed the dwarves in a new home before then, even if it would have made more sense.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The Balrog, however, rather nullified that last bit. But of course Thrain wasn't even aware of it; only Dain had seen it (if he 'saw' rather than felt it)

As an aside to the main thread, given that Dain seemed to react so strongly to whatever it was that had happened I suspect that the Balrog was at least very near the gate.

As an example, the Fellowship didn't have a similar reaction until they were near or in the Balrog's presence.