Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I'm comfortable with the idea.

But there's, as you point out, still the question of Mithrelas, who was with Imrazor, very Numenorean was he, and with him long enough to bear him Galador (male, the founder of the Line of the Princes of Dol Amroth) and Gimith ('star-mist' a really beautiful Elvish name. We never found out what happened to her, and how many children, and to whom she bore them. But with that kind of beauty, and in realm where there was a strain of Numenorean, I would hazard that she did have children, and noble ones).

We also know that Nandorin (certainly, in the First Age, in accounts suggesting refugees from Beleriand dwelt there) and Sylvan Elves lived for a long time around the region, and into the Second Age at least, in their harbour of Edhellond. There's mention of Amroth and Galadriel having either dwelt, or passed through there. Galadriel is mentioned as having taken refuge there during the War of Elves and Sauron. In fact, there is suggestion of an Elven presence into the Third Age, and materials suggest that Elves did, indeed, depart by the Straight Road to Valinor from Edhellond. As noted by Legolas in LotR, in conversation with Imrahil, who he saw as having ties to his own realm. Given all this, a blending of Elves and Men was likely for their close cohabitation.

It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water. (Legolas to Imrahil)

Mithrellas, was Sylvan, and had been in the company of Nimrodel (Amroth, son of Amdir's beloved, with all that stuff about tossing himself into the sea when Nimrodel vanished).

The union of Mithrellas and Imrazor and implications for the Choice of the Peredhil here is unclear. Given Mithrellas's disappearance, shortly after her children were born, there seems little opportunity for any of her children to have chosen an immortal life. Further, given her Sylvan heritage, her ties to Valinor were never made, and, perhaps, that has something to do with this as well.

This would mean ignoring the early stories about Mandos' decree.

All those with mortal blood are mortal unless granted exception. The children of Imrazor would have mortal blood and not being granted any leeway would be mortal. I don't see why there would be any confusion.

Not quite right--even though it's from a Letter. The Line of Elros (beyond Elros, who lived 500 years) did steadily increase until the noontide of Numenor. The dwindling occurred in Middle Earth, and with Aragorn (190) he reckoned at about half the span of Elros's line at the noontide. He did, however, have a full longevity as gifted to the mainstream folk of Numenor at the noontide--thrice that of normal men.




This stuff is good and I am comfortable with it. (I dunno, Tolkien's own letters sometimes just don't square with what he, himself wrote, in LotR! See prior comments)

Tolkien often changed his mind and redrafted things, sometimes he made mistakes and other times he wanted to put out two different versions.

Yes. Though as I said--the Arwen anomaly, therefore, implications for the Choice of the Peredhil--more broadly.

Arwen is not an anomaly, because we are the only account we have of the decree says this.

Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me.

Arwen and the twins were granted 'other doom'. Not so with the children of Imrazor so they would remain mortal.

I'm not sure about this (see Legolas's comment, upstream) and there is a second account, but only of Imrzor, whose presence at Dol Amroth was founded by Elendil's blessing, not bloodline.

Whether some of the daughters of Gondor married Imrahil's line is unclear. We don't have details of that. I'd have imagined that (given Silmarien's founding of the Line of the Faithful in Numenor--the entire premise was that female bloodlines were just as valid), I'd have imagined, that after Earnil, they had a really good look at Dol Amroth for progenitors of the throne.

Well Perandur killed any chance of the Council accepting someone through the female line when he said Gondor only accepts Salic Succession. Firiel and her descendants would have the best claim in this case.

As for Legolas' comments he could just be mistaking High Numenorean descent with recent elvish ancestry. Legolas is not well traveled to Gondor and knows little of what they were like in their height. Aragorn himself when dressed up looked more like an Elf Lord than any mortal man.

I personally tend to favour Tolkien's other version where the Princes of Dol Amroth were Elendil's kin. They were a House that kept their blood very pure and lived more in tune with the Elvish lifestyle.

This view would help explain their position as the highest nobility in Gondor. If they were close relatives to Elendil, then it would make sense for him to make them princes. This also parallels Aragorn making Faramir a prince.

Not only that, but we here Finrod mention how Elf/Man unions would not be permitted often by history, unless for some great doom. Imrazor and Mithrellas was not for some great doom. I am also suspicious that an Elf would abandon her children so readily.

Prince Imrahil to me is an example of Numenor at it's height where the Men were indistinguishable from elves.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

This would mean ignoring the early stories about Mandos' decree.

All those with mortal blood are mortal unless granted exception. The children of Imrazor would have mortal blood and not being granted any leeway would be mortal. I don't see why there would be any confusion.

I'm arguing that Mandos's decree may not be taken, quite so literally--what I mean by the 'Arwen Anomaly' (I'm using proper noun form, on purpose), is the precedent set that is discordant with Mandos's initial decree in Valinor (though as you point out, with your citation, there was a modification or addendum he made to his initial decree. Nice materials, btw).

Mandos *specifically* says (in the Silmarillion, when Earendil made it to Valinor) that the --sons-- of Earendil and Elwing are to be covered by his Decree.

Arwen--female--yet, she had the Choice of the Peredhil.

I might argue that we should merely interpret Mandos as commenting upon the Peredil he knew would come of the Half Elves he knew *of*, and that it is unclear what is meant for unions of Elves and Men beyond the Line of Earendil.

Tolkien often changed his mind and redrafted things, sometimes he made mistakes and other times he wanted to put out two different versions.

Exactly. I wonder what he would say about Gilmith and Galador, daughter and son of Mithrellas.

Arwen is not an anomaly, because we are the only account we have of the decree says this.

See prior.

Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me.

Only Arwen, really, was granted 'other doom' (access to immortality, given Mandos's Decree for the *sons* of Earendil. Elladan and Elrohir were sons and covered, quite consistently, by Mandos's initial decree (but, here again, another inconsistency in the mythology. Elrond specifically says to Aragorn--Tale of Aragorn and Arwen--that **all** his children needed to depart with him to get immortality. This makes no real sense when looking at what Mandos's decree initially posited. Surely, (theoretically), the sons coulda just said 'see ya in 50 dad--we wanna hang around a bit longer. Galadriel did. So did you. So we wrote to Mandos and said 'I wanna live forever, but dad's boat's goin' too early)

Not so with the children of Imrazor so they would remain mortal.

Yes. But provisionally. What we don't know is 'would they have', had Mithrellas not disappeared, and, for example, chucked her kids on a boat at Edhellond, to go into the Uttermost West.

I doubt, highly, that the boat would have been refused access to Valinor, don't you think? My point goes to 'which way the kids go'--I like ma more than pa--daddy Numenorean's a bit of a hard *** and likes too much drink and wants all that human-y stuff. I like ma's lamenting singing. She makes Waybread and I like what the Lady Galadriel said to me in Lorien. Lorien's way cooler for me (said Gilmith) than daddy's sword stuff'.

Well Perandur killed any chance of the Council accepting someone through the female line when he said Gondor only accepts Salic Succession. Firiel and her descendants would have the best claim in this case.

I really wonder about all that Salic Succession stuff. This is a contravention of the Laws of Succession, modified in Numenor. Somewhat presumptious of any Gondor-ian delegate, to do this. I wonder. I need to look more closely at materials on the Stewardship and Gondor's line of succession before I comment further.

Not only that, but we here Finrod mention how Elf/Man unions would not be permitted often by history, unless for some great doom. Imrazor and Mithrellas was not for some great doom. I am also suspicious that an Elf would abandon her children so readily.

I wonder about this too. I think Finrod would not be speaking of those of the Eldar or Elves who broke with tradition. I think he was speaking more like a monarch, like Queen Lizzy, England, and all that stuff about 'princes do thy duty and don't marry a commoner'. There must have been some radical elements amongst the Elves, from time to time, surely.

I do like the idea, though, of the females of the Line of Silmarien of Andunie, in Gondor--all the second and subsequent born--Princesses of Gondor, trundling off to marry Imrahil's Elvishy crew. Seems quite likely, as I think you suggested.

I really need to look a little more closely at 'what' exactly, they did after Earnur. I wonder if Tolkien ever commented about Elros's blood being present in Imrahil's line. One would of thought it would have been mentioned, by *someone* in LotR at the Pelenor?

Prince Imrahil to me is an example of Numenor at it's height where the Men were indistinguishable from elves.

Interesting. I'd have to agree with you on this. He was 'fair' enough that Legolas was quite taken by him. Certainly, Aragorn, during his first 50 years prior to meeting Arwen in Lorien the second time, must have spent time in Dol Amroth, visiting and looking about, and perhaps making renown enough for himself, that he could pull a favour from Imrahil more easily. As far as Dol Amroth was concerned, a very long time ago, Isildur's and Anarion's line vanished. I wonder how 'lore wise' Imrahil actually was in his Princedom. As someone of such prominence in Gondor in a legitimate Princedom, he was not going to easily take orders from Aragorn, or, not lightly, accept the claim Aragorn Made. I suspect Aragorn fostered relations and got renown for himself (as noted in Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, though they did not mention 'exactly where' he got his reputation).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Certainly, Aragorn, during his first 50 years prior to meeting Arwen in Lorien the second time, must have spent time in Dol Amroth, visiting and looking about, and perhaps making renown enough for himself, that he could pull a favour from Imrahil more easily. As far as Dol Amroth was concerned, a very long time ago, Isildur's and Anarion's line vanished. I wonder how 'lore wise' Imrahil actually was in his Princedom. As someone of such prominence in Gondor in a legitimate Princedom, he was not going to easily take orders from Aragorn, or, not lightly, accept the claim Aragorn Made. I suspect Aragorn fostered relations and got renown for himself (as noted in Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, though they did not mention 'exactly where' he got his reputation).

Except for that theory to hold up, Imrahil would somehow have to have found out that Aragorn was the same as the 'Thorongil' of his boyhood.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Certainly, Aragorn, during his first 50 years prior to meeting Arwen in Lorien the second time, must have spent time in Dol Amroth, visiting and looking about, and perhaps making renown enough for himself, that he could pull a favour from Imrahil more easily. As far as Dol Amroth was concerned, a very long time ago, Isildur's and Anarion's line vanished. I wonder how 'lore wise' Imrahil actually was in his Princedom. As someone of such prominence in Gondor in a legitimate Princedom, he was not going to easily take orders from Aragorn, or, not lightly, accept the claim Aragorn Made. I suspect Aragorn fostered relations and got renown for himself (as noted in Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, though they did not mention 'exactly where' he got his reputation).

Except for that theory to hold up, Imrahil would somehow have to have found out that Aragorn was the same as the 'Thorongil' of his boyhood.

Why wouldn't he? Denethor expected as much and Imrahil seems like a throw back to the Numenoreans of old too. I think it's likely he had some suspicion this was to be the case. Imrahil was also the greatest noble in Gondor, ahead of even the steward (though the latter had the powers of the King). Thorongil as the Steward's right hand would have had to interact with the family on numerous occasions.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I don't believe it's anywhere suggested that Thorongil was "the Steward's right hand," or had any status except as a military captain, and there's no particular reason to suppose that he would have visited Dol Amroth or met the Prince's toddler; his job was with the Army and the Fleet.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I don't believe it's anywhere suggested that Thorongil was "the Steward's right hand," or had any status except as a military captain, and there's no particular reason to suppose that he would have visited Dol Amroth or met the Prince's toddler; his job was with the Army and the Fleet.

We are told he was effectively the Steward's right hand in the appendix.

'In much he (Ecthelion II) did he had the aid and the advice of a great captain whom he loved above all.....He was a great leader of men, by land or by the sea, but he departed into the shadows whence he came, before the days of Ecthelion were ended.'

He had so much power in Gondor Aragorn was the most beloved man and seen as a rival to Denthor.

'At the time many thought that Thorongil had departed before his rival became his master; though indeed Thorongil had never himself vied with Denethor'

Denethor as great as he was and he was very great just could not compare even to Ecthelion with Aragorn.

'yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father.'

Thorongil as we have seen counseled in everything including trusting Gandalf over Saruman.

'And in one matter only were their (Aragorn and Denethor) counsels to the Steward at variance: Thorongil often warned Ecthelion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard, but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf.'