Elves and Ringwraiths

[Ivriniel]

Khamul -- now he is very interesting for a number of particular reasons. I will provide textual analysis at the end of the post.

Khamul was the only Ringwraith Tolkien spoke about. Khamul was known as The Black Easterling and Shadow of the East--before he became a Ringwraith. He is implicated in the alliance between the land of Rhun and Mordor. He was second in power, but one of the six Ringwraiths not of Numenorean descent. Interesting, that, isn't it. He was the Ringwraith who pursued the Hobbits to the Buckleberry Ferry. He spoke to Maggot asking about "Baggins", was present killing Gondor-ian soldiers on the Pelenor and present at the Battle of Moranon.

Analysis

1. non-numenoreans can achieve a greatness that rivals them. Implying.
2. A capacity for potency in Men of normal lifespan, not of the Elder Days, not exposed to the Noldorin influence in Beleriand--not connected, in any way, to the Light of Aman. With intrinsically evil/dark personality attributes.
3. Why did Tolkien *only* speak about this particular Ringwraith. Interesting isn't it. This is one of those times that we need to make inferences by, not only presence (the one he spoke about), but what that means by way of inferences by absence (why did he choose to note Easterling Ringwraiths, but not the Numenorean ones?)

This is particularly noteworthy because of the prominence of the Witchking in the mythology, don't you think. How is it that the Witchking--responsible for the destruction of Arnor, the inadvertent loss of Arnor-ean artefacts (Palantiri in the Ice Bay of Forochel, when Arvedui was lost), and who also slew Earnil, last King of Gondor. Who sacked Minas Ithil. Who occupied Dol Guldur after Sauron reoccupied Mordor.

We don't know who the *bleep* The Witchking was, but we do the Easterling of Rhun.

The Easterling's potency is materials *deeply* discordant with the mythology as it much more typically caste ideas about the 'lesser' and 'fading' races. *And* the particular Easterling noted for his history.

I, truly, do not know what this means about what the capacities for power and potency are in the Mortal Races.

On an interesting addendum, the Pukel Men, had a particular resilience to Evil (this cuts the opposite way to Khamul) and who also had particular magical powers of their own. This legacy of magic is well noted in supplementary materials Christopher Tolkien wrote (I can quote citations if people seek those. But I read a story about a stone that a Pukel men charged with magic that protected, I think it was a Numenorean home, from an Orc assault).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

was present killing Gondor-ian soldiers on the Pele[n]nor

Really?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

was present killing Gondor-ian soldiers on the Pele[n]nor

Really?

Hi there WCH,

Materials can only be as reliable as the citations drawn from. You can never be really sure. See here

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The Ringwraiths certainly played a decisive role in the assault on Gondor as Weapons of Mass Terror- but did they actually kill anyone, save those who eventually died of despair? I don't think so.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The Ringwraiths certainly played a decisive role in the assault on Gondor as Weapons of Mass Terror- but did they actually kill anyone, save those who eventually died of despair? I don't think so.

I diden write the citation. Did they 'directly' slay? We knew they wielded actual weapons. The mace of the Witchking struck Eowyn, and all that. The morgal blade and Frodo at Amon Sul (that must have been a favourite ole haunt of the Witchking - pardon pun ). Though, as you say, you tend to see them screachin' like troubled children and making creepy sounds more than anything else.

On the point of the 'how' a Ringwraith gets such powers, I have been pondering, much about what kinds of 'energies' or processes are at work. Ea and all of that - perhaps some inverse variant of it? Perhaps, there's this 'sink hole' or dimension where Ea flows back [into] and perhaps Sauron runs the flow in reverse?

What is 'unlight' (Ungoliante's shadow web) and 'unlife' anyway, and Tolkien's particular use of antonyms for expressing something very specific....

[Nerwen]

Ivriniel, I don't think that wiki you link to is all that reliable. At least, I can't find a source for Khamul being present at the Battle of the Pelennor fields. There were five Ringwraiths there, but if Tolkien ever specified Khamul was one of them, I don't believe he did it in either "Lord of the Rings" or "Unfinished Tales", which are the references given.

I could be wrong, of course- maybe I've missed something.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ivriniel, I don't think that wiki you link to is all that reliable. At least, I can't find a source for Khamul being present at the Battle of the Pelennor fields. There were five Ringwraiths there, but if Tolkien ever specified Khamul was one of them, I don't believe he did it in either "Lord of the Rings" or "Unfinished Tales", which are the references given.

I could be wrong, of course- maybe I've missed something.

Hi there Nerwen, nice to meet u. I must say, I'd never heard it quite told like the reference put it, either, but it's been a while since I've gone to UT or LotR.

I'm gathering my tomes atm . There are the other five (terribly dense books, you'd have seen them or have them, 'The Straight Road, and four others. All that stuff about the Gnomes *screams in horror at the imagery* of Kor *second scream* and their original placement as Noldor *breaths sigh of relieve*. I have honestly had to put those books down for the sense of *gasp* violation *winks* that the contrary language adapts. And the multitude of variations to other materials.

Some of the posters here have an incredibly diverse array of other materials, well beyond Letters....I'm looking forwards to learning more, again, by being here.

Kind Regards to you
Ivriniel

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ivriniel, I don't think that wiki you link to is all that reliable.

Indeed, you must never trust the "Lord of the Rings Wiki." It's a mess of book-lore, film material, "fanon", backstory from RPGs and amateur textual interpretation all muddled together. Note that it's too amateurish to even remember the "The" at the beginning of "The Lord of the Rings!" It's kind of like the post-Peter Jackson equivalent of one of David Day's reference books.

I generally go to the Tolkien Gateway when I need a quick hint for a reference: tolkiengateway.net I then confirm this with a primary source.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Khamul was the only Ringwraith Tolkien spoke about. Khamul was known as The Black Easterling and Shadow of the East--before he became a Ringwraith. He is implicated in the alliance between the land of Rhun and Mordor. He was second in power, but one of the six Ringwraiths not of Numenorean descent.

We may observe that Professor Tolkien ultimately omitted the naming of Khamûl in any text published in his lifetime, presumably, I would argue, to maintain the sense of anonymous terror associated with the Ringwraiths. Perhaps he originally intended to identify the Lieutenant of their dark order just as he had, to an extent, their Captain, but ultimately changed his mind.
The East of Middle-earth had lain under the shadow since time immemorial: first as the slaves and worshippers of Morgoth, and later in the same function for Sauron. I would not be surprised if several of the Ringwraiths were Easterlings (I would speculate that some, also, were probably Haradrim). Rhûn was a wide land, and the gift of Rings of Power to Easterling Kings might have secured its realms under his control amid the turmoils of the Second Age after Morgoth's empire collapsed.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ivriniel, ... being present at the Battle of the Pelennor fields. There were five Ringwraiths there...

Are you sure? I know of a reference (Siege of Gondor) where there were five ringwraiths flying against Faramir when he returned from Henneth Annun - but that was a few days before the battle.

Later, I only see references to "the nazgul", without being specific how many (five, eight, or whatever).

The WK rode to (and in) the battle on a horse - but had his winged beast available (as he used it when Theoden arrived) ... so he was "probably" not flying around buzzing the city during the battle like other ring wraiths (leaving eight or fewer in the air) - but even that is only conjecture (even if rational).

I've missed references before which is why I ask. If I've missed something here please point me to it.