Elves and Ringwraiths

[Nerwen]

Ivriniel, I don't think that wiki you link to is all that reliable. At least, I can't find a source for Khamul being present at the Battle of the Pelennor fields. There were five Ringwraiths there, but if Tolkien ever specified Khamul was one of them, I don't believe he did it in either "Lord of the Rings" or "Unfinished Tales", which are the references given.

I could be wrong, of course- maybe I've missed something.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ivriniel, I don't think that wiki you link to is all that reliable. At least, I can't find a source for Khamul being present at the Battle of the Pelennor fields. There were five Ringwraiths there, but if Tolkien ever specified Khamul was one of them, I don't believe he did it in either "Lord of the Rings" or "Unfinished Tales", which are the references given.

I could be wrong, of course- maybe I've missed something.

Hi there Nerwen, nice to meet u. I must say, I'd never heard it quite told like the reference put it, either, but it's been a while since I've gone to UT or LotR.

I'm gathering my tomes atm . There are the other five (terribly dense books, you'd have seen them or have them, 'The Straight Road, and four others. All that stuff about the Gnomes *screams in horror at the imagery* of Kor *second scream* and their original placement as Noldor *breaths sigh of relieve*. I have honestly had to put those books down for the sense of *gasp* violation *winks* that the contrary language adapts. And the multitude of variations to other materials.

Some of the posters here have an incredibly diverse array of other materials, well beyond Letters....I'm looking forwards to learning more, again, by being here.

Kind Regards to you
Ivriniel

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ivriniel, I don't think that wiki you link to is all that reliable.

Indeed, you must never trust the "Lord of the Rings Wiki." It's a mess of book-lore, film material, "fanon", backstory from RPGs and amateur textual interpretation all muddled together. Note that it's too amateurish to even remember the "The" at the beginning of "The Lord of the Rings!" It's kind of like the post-Peter Jackson equivalent of one of David Day's reference books.

I generally go to the Tolkien Gateway when I need a quick hint for a reference: tolkiengateway.net I then confirm this with a primary source.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Khamul was the only Ringwraith Tolkien spoke about. Khamul was known as The Black Easterling and Shadow of the East--before he became a Ringwraith. He is implicated in the alliance between the land of Rhun and Mordor. He was second in power, but one of the six Ringwraiths not of Numenorean descent.

We may observe that Professor Tolkien ultimately omitted the naming of Khamûl in any text published in his lifetime, presumably, I would argue, to maintain the sense of anonymous terror associated with the Ringwraiths. Perhaps he originally intended to identify the Lieutenant of their dark order just as he had, to an extent, their Captain, but ultimately changed his mind.
The East of Middle-earth had lain under the shadow since time immemorial: first as the slaves and worshippers of Morgoth, and later in the same function for Sauron. I would not be surprised if several of the Ringwraiths were Easterlings (I would speculate that some, also, were probably Haradrim). Rhûn was a wide land, and the gift of Rings of Power to Easterling Kings might have secured its realms under his control amid the turmoils of the Second Age after Morgoth's empire collapsed.

[Galin]

... but it is reinforced by the end of the passage that says "they are all now gone"- cert. a reference to Middle-earth and not the Elves in Aman!

Looking at the other side of the coin here, while I think this does reinforce that the Eldar 'of Middle-earth' is meant, one could claim that the Vanyar are yet 'gone' as well, from Middle-earth that is, compared to other Quendi; and so the reference could still be to 'all' the Eldar from the perspective of the fictive translator writing Appendix F [Tolkien]...

... again arguably 'odd' in that the Vanyar were hardly 'of Middle-earth' in a historical sense, having all passed Over Sea so very early on -- compared to the Eldarin Noldor and Sindar leaving Middle-earth so very much later, and interacting with Men far, far more. And again I think the perspective does, or can at least, arguably switch to a Mannish perspective [thus who the heck are the Vanyar? And what they look like is hardly in mind when we speak of the 'Eldar' in Middle-earth].

In any case, Tolkien himself would maybe not find this kind of thinking odd, that 'Eldar' might be used without a true inclusive sense...

4. Elda and Eldo. The original distinction between these forms as meaning 'one of the Star-folk, or Elves in general', and one of the 'Marchers', became obscured by the close approach of the forms. The form Eldo went out of use, and Elda remained the chief word for 'Elf' in Quenya. But it was not in accurate use held to include the Avari (when they were remembered or considered); i.e. it took on the sense of Eldo. It may, however, have been partly due to its older sense that in popular use it was the word ordinarily employed for any Elf, that is, as an equivalent of the Quende of the Loremasters. When one of the Elves of Aman spoke of the Eldalie, 'the Elven-folk', he meant vaguely all the race of Elves, though he was probably not thinking of the Avari.

JRRT, Quendi And Eldar

And so it seems to me that from the perspective of Middle-earthers, one might use Eldar even if probably not thinking of the Vanyar.

Erm. If that makes sense.

Anyway sorry to the 'Elves and Ringwraiths' readers.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

We may observe that Professor Tolkien ultimately omitted the naming of Khamûl in any text published in his lifetime, presumably, I would argue, to maintain the sense of anonymous terror associated with the Ringwraiths. Perhaps he originally intended to identify the Lieutenant of their dark order just as he had, to an extent, their Captain, but ultimately changed his mind.
The East of Middle-earth had lain under the shadow since time immemorial: first as the slaves and worshippers of Morgoth, and later in the same function for Sauron. I would not be surprised if several of the Ringwraiths were Easterlings (I would speculate that some, also, were probably Haradrim). Rhûn was a wide land, and the gift of Rings of Power to Easterling Kings might have secured its realms under his control amid the turmoils of the Second Age after Morgoth's empire collapsed.

In that case, it's actually little weird Sauron was willing to have three Nazgul who were Numenorian, or four (depending on whether the earlier guess of the WK's heritage is accurate or not). One would think he would want a max of ONE Numenorian Nazgul; to spread his rings and influence in as wide a net as possible. Yes, by the time he doles out the last rings, Sauron is nominally a prisoner there. But it seems to me that at no point was Sauron so desperate that he gave our rings out of neccecity, especially since he seemed well capable of bestowing "special" gifts on loyal servants that did NOT require a ring (such as The Mouth, or those two rulers (Fram and someone else, I think) Sauron seemed to always have the luxury of biding his time, and picking and choosing which nine men would make his "best" private force.
A part of me likes the idea of at least one or two Haradrian Nazgul to cement those regions securely (one or two depending on whether Near and Far Harad are similar enough to allow one indiviual to be ultimately in charge of both, or whether each would need it's own supreme ruler. It is even tempting to think that, should there be such a pair in the Wraith Ranks, they were numbered amoung the five at Pellenor, as supreme commanders of thier respective nations.
Gothmog II was probably a Numenorian. Given corrupted Numernorian tendencies to revel in the past, it would well fit a turned one to select as his new name that of the Chief of the Balrogs as a sort of "I am Gothmog re-incranted, I am a supreme Badass." (This assumes 1. Some or all of the Nazgul chose new names for themselves when they turned (likely I think, since I doubt that a normal man in most of the societies (especially the Numenorian, could get away with calling himself "Gothmog" and not arouse a lot of suspicion). and 2. They chose those names themselves, rather than having them bestowed on them by Sauron (in a sort of Emperor Palpatine situation))
Gothmog probably ranks third in the Hierarchy, since coordinating authority over the whole Pellenor force was given to him. Though this sort of contradicts my theory that rank in the Nazgul was determined by sieniority (i.e. The WK was the first man Sauron gave a ring to, Khamul was the second, etc.) If there are only three Numenorians, they would be the LAST three wraiths, and therfore, by that theory, the lowest ranked.)
Beyond that, it's anyone's guess. Could one be a Wainrider? Could another be a former ruler of Nurn? (actually the last might make a lot of sense, to have a wraith as ultimate authority over the Mordorian breadbasket to keep the slaves in line might be sensible.)

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

In that case, it's actually little weird Sauron was willing to have three Nazgul who were Numenorian, or four (depending on whether the earlier guess of the WK's heritage is accurate or not). One would think he would want a max of ONE Numenorian Nazgul; to spread his rings and influence in as wide a net as possible. Yes, by the time he doles out the last rings, Sauron is nominally a prisoner there. But it seems to me that at no point was Sauron so desperate that he gave our rings out of neccecity, especially since he seemed well capable of bestowing "special" gifts on loyal servants that did NOT require a ring (such as The Mouth, or those two rulers (Fram and someone else, I think) Sauron seemed to always have the luxury of biding his time, and picking and choosing which nine men would make his "best" private force.
A part of me likes the idea of at least one or two Haradrian Nazgul to cement those regions securely (one or two depending on whether Near and Far Harad are similar enough to allow one indiviual to be ultimately in charge of both, or whether each would need it's own supreme ruler. It is even tempting to think that, should there be such a pair in the Wraith Ranks, they were numbered amoung the five at Pellenor, as supreme commanders of thier respective nations.
Gothmog II was probably a Numenorian. Given corrupted Numernorian tendencies to revel in the past, it would well fit a turned one to select as his new name that of the Chief of the Balrogs as a sort of "I am Gothmog re-incranted, I am a supreme Badass." (This assumes 1. Some or all of the Nazgul chose new names for themselves when they turned (likely I think, since I doubt that a normal man in most of the societies (especially the Numenorian, could get away with calling himself "Gothmog" and not arouse a lot of suspicion). and 2. They chose those names themselves, rather than having them bestowed on them by Sauron (in a sort of Emperor Palpatine situation))
Gothmog probably ranks third in the Hierarchy, since coordinating authority over the whole Pellenor force was given to him. Though this sort of contradicts my theory that rank in the Nazgul was determined by sieniority (i.e. The WK was the first man Sauron gave a ring to, Khamul was the second, etc.) If there are only three Numenorians, they would be the LAST three wraiths, and therfore, by that theory, the lowest ranked.)
Beyond that, it's anyone's guess. Could one be a Wainrider? Could another be a former ruler of Nurn? (actually the last might make a lot of sense, to have a wraith as ultimate authority over the Mordorian breadbasket to keep the slaves in line might be sensible.)

There is no concrete evidence that the 3rd Age Gothmog at the Battle of Pelennor Field was a Nazgul. All we know is that he was a lieutenant to the WiKi in Minas Morgul, but that post did not necessarily require a Nazgul, as we know the lieutenant of Barad-dur was the Mouth of Sauron, who was a mortal without a Ring.

I believe Tolkien stated that at least three of the Nazgul were Numenorean (including the WiKi); in this case, it would be understandable if one of these great Numenorean Lords was a King of Umbar or in Harad, where the Black Numenoreans held sway for many years.

[Alfirin]

Yes, that is true, the Mouth became second in Command of Barad Dur while still being a man (though in his case, given he is so old he has forgotten his name, the term "mortal" may be stretching things a bit.)
Actually, ALL the Nazgul are probably Kings of some region, or whatever term is used locally for the ultimate leader. As his most trusted servants, Sauron would naturally want to put them in supreme charge of those areas under his Dominion. That's why I suggested one might rule Nurn; who else could he trust so much to make sure the supply of food for his troops continued safely.
Umbar does also seem a likey spot of rule for one, since, as you said, it is a Black Numenorian stronghold. My one problem with this is that, if one of the Nazgul IS the king of Umbar, where was he when Umbar was sacked. Granted, each ruling Nazgul must fairly regularly have to leave his realm in the hands of a trusted steward when they are off on other Sauronian business (if Gothmog is not a Nazgul, he probably is such and Individual in most cases the ruler of Minas Morgul in the Wiki's absence.) , but given that the Battle of Pellenor is a pretty major undertaking; you expect the Lord of Umbar to come with his fleet behind him (the same way the WiKi arrived at Pellenor with an army from Minas Morgul) At bare minimum you expect him to be popping back from time to time to check. Umbar is only a moderate distance (as compared to say Minas Morgul) from Gondor even by boat, by Fell Beast it's even less. Even if the Lord deicided it was more important to go on ahead to the battle and let his fleet follow him, he would have let whoever was left in charge know where he was in case messages needed to be sent. And messages WOULD be sent. No matter how abrupt the Dead Mens attack was and how through, one would assume some Umbarian would have been able to send a messager bird to his Commander (after Aragorn and Co. LEFT, if not before) if his Commander in Chief was already there ("Fleet destroyed. Enemy on way to you. Please advise.") And the Forces of Sauron should Know Aragorn is coming AGES before he gets there, and have a trap waiting for him. I'm not actually saying the Lord of Umbar CAN'T be one of the Nazgul, but if he is, he seems to be doing a lousy job of leading his people (and if he ISN'T one of the Five at Pellenor, then why not, seeing as how the likelyhood of his people being part of the fight is so high?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Yes, that is true, the Mouth became second in Command of Barad Dur while still being a man (though in his case, given he is so old he has forgotten his name, the term "mortal" may be stretching things a bit.)

"His name is remembered in no tale, for he himself had forgotten it."
I do not believe that the Mouth of Sauron was particularly ancient. We are only told that he had forgotten his own name, not that he had forgotten it due to age. In the same way I believe that Gothmog was a Man and not a Wraith. I associate him with the Morgul-riders who emerged from the Dead City with the Black Captain as witnessed by Frodo and Sam.

Khamûl was the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur. He seemingly no longer had any affiliation with the Easterlings by the end of the Third Age. In the same way I think we needn't find confusion in the idea of other Wraiths no longer leading their former realms to battle. The Lord of the Nazgûl was King of Angmar and Lord of Morgul in his time: he did not persist in a specifically Black Númenórean connection.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Actually, please have a look at some other citations. He was knows as the Black Easterling, Shadow in the East second in charge, occupant of Dol Guldur, Ringwraith in the Shire who spoke, the Ringwraith most able to sense the Ring, but most susceptible to sunlight.

I don't dispute that. I am entirely familiar with the material in Unfinished Tales which relates to Khamûl. I was simply giving a general warning about the reliability of information on the "Lord of the Rings Wiki."

[Inziladun]

This public computer for some reason will not allow me to quote, but I'm with Zigûr that the Mouth was not necessarily old, just that he had so submerged himself into Sauron's will that he had lost any sense of independant identity. It need not be assumed that Gothmog was in any similar state. He was probably just an Easterling, or maybe even an especially large, strong, and commanding Orc given that particular name in honor of Morgoth's fearsome field captain.

I also agree that the Nazgûl would have been unlikely to have kept any connection with the peoples of their origin. There would have been little need for it, given that Sauron already had a hold on those folk anyway.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I don't dispute that. I am entirely familiar with the material in Unfinished Tales which relates to Khamûl. I was simply giving a general warning about the reliability of information on the "Lord of the Rings Wiki."

Nice touch with the 'Û'. I would have loved to have seen your ideas about Khamul. There was an interesting view about Tolkien's intention offered, possibly anonymising the Nazgul to add to their terror (for the reader), and so, querying whether or not Khamul, as a name, ever existed.

I'm still thinking about the implications for having a non-Numenorean ace the Numenorean Ringwraiths (except the Witchking) in power. And what this means about Elves and Ringwraiths in a relative ranking of power.

[Nerwen]

Ivriniel, the part I was querying is the claim that Khamul was at the Pellenor fields- not all the Ringwraiths were, as I recall, and I can't find any individual account of his later movements. Doesn't seem to be in UT, anyway.

I'm aware this is just a side issue, but I'd like to track down the source (if there is one).

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Nice touch with the 'Û'. I would have loved to have seen your ideas about Khamul. There was an interesting view about Tolkien's intention offered, possibly anonymising the Nazgul to add to their terror (for the reader), and so, querying whether or not Khamul, as a name, ever existed.

I don't understand what you mean by that last bit; of course it existed- you've read the relevant text yourself. Are you asking whether it can be considered "canonical"?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Indeed, you must never trust the "Lord of the Rings Wiki." It's a mess of book-lore, film material, "fanon", backstory from RPGs and amateur textual interpretation all muddled together. Note that it's too amateurish to even remember the "The" at the beginning of "The Lord of the Rings!" It's kind of like the post-Peter Jackson equivalent of one of David Day's reference books.

I generally go to the Tolkien Gateway when I need a quick hint for a reference: tolkiengateway.net I then confirm this with a primary source.

Actually, please have a look at some other citations. He was knows as the Black Easterling, Shadow in the East second in charge, occupant of Dol Guldur, Ringwraith in the Shire who spoke, the Ringwraith most able to sense the Ring, but most susceptible to sunlight.

The only materials I can't (yet) support is that he was one of three non-Numenorean Ringwraiths.

The supplementary analysis in my post holds with the information re-cited, from other locations (plural).

I have UT, in my hand, and I quote from The Hunt for the Ring, p. 338, Hardback, Allen & Unwin Ed.

"Now at that time the Chieftain of the ringwraiths dwelt in Minal Morgal with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khamul the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldur as Saruon's lieuteneant, with one other as his messenger"

There's his name (Tolkien did not leave them all anonymous. Presumably he just never developed their identities in narratives due to literary emphasis in the 'story he was telling'), his rank, association with Dol Guldur for a period, implications for his origin (Mortal of non-Numenorean lineage--*second* in charge).

All these materials are enough to support the textual analysis I provided, reposted, here:

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Indeed, you must never trust the "Lord of the Rings Wiki." It's a mess of book-lore, film material, "fanon", backstory from RPGs and amateur textual interpretation all muddled together. Note that it's too amateurish to even remember the "The" at the beginning of "The Lord of the Rings!" It's kind of like the post-Peter Jackson equivalent of one of David Day's reference books.

I generally go to the Tolkien Gateway when I need a quick hint for a reference: tolkiengateway.net I then confirm this with a primary source.


We may observe that Professor Tolkien ultimately omitted the naming of Khamûl in any text published in his lifetime.....

I've traced the citation to support my claims. UT, p. 338.

Khamul -- now he is very interesting for a number of particular reasons. I will provide textual analysis at the end of the post.

Khamul was the only Ringwraith Tolkien spoke about. Khamul was known as The Black Easterling and Shadow of the East--before he became a Ringwraith. He is implicated in the alliance between the land of Rhun and Mordor. He was second in power, but one of the six Ringwraiths not of Numenorean descent. Interesting, that, isn't it. He was the Ringwraith who pursued the Hobbits to the Buckleberry Ferry. He spoke to Maggot asking about "Baggins", was present killing Gondor-ian soldiers on the Pelenor and present at the Battle of Moranon.

Analysis

1. non-numenoreans can achieve a greatness that rivals them. Implying.
2. A capacity for potency in Men of normal lifespan, not of the Elder Days, not exposed to the Noldorin influence in Beleriand--not connected, in any way, to the Light of Aman. With intrinsically evil/dark personality attributes.
3. Why did Tolkien *only* speak about this particular Ringwraith. Interesting isn't it. This is one of those times that we need to make inferences by, not only presence (the one he spoke about), but what that means by way of inferences by absence (why did he choose to note Easterling Ringwraiths, but not the Numenorean ones?)

This is particularly noteworthy because of the prominence of the Witchking in the mythology, don't you think. How is it that the Witchking--responsible for the destruction of Arnor, the inadvertent loss of Arnor-ean artefacts (Palantiri in the Ice Bay of Forochel, when Arvedui was lost), and who also slew Earnil, last King of Gondor. Who sacked Minas Ithil. Who occupied Dol Guldur after Sauron reoccupied Mordor.

We don't know who the *bleep* The Witchking was, but we do the Easterling of Rhun.

The Easterling's potency is materials *deeply* discordant with the mythology as it much more typically caste ideas about the 'lesser' and 'fading' races. *And* the particular Easterling noted for his history.

I, truly, do not know what this means about what the capacities for power and potency are in the Mortal Races.

On an interesting addendum, the Pukel Men, had a particular resilience to Evil (this cuts the opposite way to Khamul) and who also had particular magical powers of their own. This legacy of magic is well noted in supplementary materials Christopher Tolkien wrote (I can quote citations if people seek those. But I read a story about a stone that a Pukel men charged with magic that protected, I think it was a Numenorean home, from an Orc assault).

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ivriniel, ... being present at the Battle of the Pelennor fields. There were five Ringwraiths there...

Are you sure? I know of a reference (Siege of Gondor) where there were five ringwraiths flying against Faramir when he returned from Henneth Annun - but that was a few days before the battle.

Later, I only see references to "the nazgul", without being specific how many (five, eight, or whatever).

The WK rode to (and in) the battle on a horse - but had his winged beast available (as he used it when Theoden arrived) ... so he was "probably" not flying around buzzing the city during the battle like other ring wraiths (leaving eight or fewer in the air) - but even that is only conjecture (even if rational).

I've missed references before which is why I ask. If I've missed something here please point me to it.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Are you sure? I know of a reference (Siege of Gondor) where there were five ringwraiths flying against Faramir when he returned from Henneth Annun - but that was a few days before the battle.

Later, I only see references to "the nazgul", without being specific how many (five, eight, or whatever).

The WK rode to (and in) the battle on a horse - but had his winged beast available (as he used it when Theoden arrived) ... so he was "probably" not flying around buzzing the city during the battle like other ring wraiths (leaving eight or fewer in the air) - but even that is only conjecture (even if rational).

I've missed references before which is why I ask. If I've missed something here please point me to it.

No, I'm not sure. But I assumed that was the part the wiki was referencing, rather than the chapter "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields"- I believe it's the only thing that would fit the description. Compare "mounted on his fell beast and killing Gondor's soldiers" to "out of the dim sky fell the winged shadows, the Nazgul stooping to the kill". That is, I think there's been some conflation- I could have been clearer about that, I guess.

Anyway, the main point is I don't believe there's any way of telling whether Khamul was there or not. Later- well, since *all* the Nazgul were at the Morannon, and *all* perished with the Ring, and since, by inference, Khamul would have been in charge at this point, I can't say the wiki is factually incorrect here... yet, it seems to me to give a false impression. You would think, just from this, that Tolkien had left a fairly detailed account of what this particular Nazgul did right up to the end. If there is one, it's not in the references given.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Tolkien left no account of the doings of particular Nazgul, other than the notes associated with the Hunt for the Ring

After the Bruinen, all we know is that
* A Nazgul was shot down by Legolas at Sarn Gebir
* A few days later, another Nazgul met with Grishnakh on the west bank of Anduin, ordering him to rejoin Ugluk
* A Nazgul swept over Frodo, Sam and Gollum in the Dead Marshes
* Two passed overhead while F, S & G hid in the Slag-mounds
* A Nazgul passed over Dol Baran the night of the Palantir en route to Isengard just before midnight; a second overflew Edoras at dawn (these were originally intended to be the same as the previous pair)
* Five attempted to destroy Faramir's company retreating from Cair Andros
* Eight (prob) provided CAP during the Siege of Gondor; the WK (prob) stayed on the ground
* Pelennor: WK breaks Gate, kills Theoden, dies. One flies back to Barad-dur with news; one (prob the same one) flies to Cirith Ungol, too late to catch F & S escaping
* Eight, prob in shifts, shadow the Captains of the West.
* All eight survivors at Morannon; destroyed.

[Nerwen]

Thanks, WCH.. That's about what I thought.

What do you make of this, though?

Originally Posted by LOTR Wiki

==Rumors==
*According to another version of the stories Khamûl was stationed at Dol Guldur on March 6th, when Aragorn revealed himself to Sauron and began marching on the wood elf kingdoms on March 10th. On March 11th, his forces began assailing the nearby Lórien. After this failed, much of his force passed around the border of the woods and entered the The Wold. On March 12th, they were met with Ents sent east from Fangorn and Isengard, and were routed. Lórien was then attacked twice more on March 15th and March 22nd, but was never entered. The forces of Dol Guldur also went north into Mirkwood, battling the forces of King Thranduil under Mirkwood's trees, the climax of these battles being on March 15, 3019 which after a "long battle... and great ruin and fire" was won by Thranduil's forces.