Elves and Ringwraiths

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Do remember that the Nine were given their rings in the Second Age, and the political geography of Middle-earth was not at all that of the Third (indeed we know little about it). The Ringwraiths first appeared about SA 2250 thirty years before Umbar was built (and they 'appeared', one supposes, quite some time after they had been given their rings).

It is interesting that the appearance of the Ringwraiths comes in the same entry as "Tar-Ancalimon takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins." Could one or more of the RW, when still visible "mortal" men, have been Sauronian agents in Numenor itself?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Do remember that the Nine were given their rings in the Second Age, and the political geography of Middle-earth was not at all that of the Third (indeed we know little about it). The Ringwraiths first appeared about SA 2250 thirty years before Umbar was built (and they 'appeared', one supposes, quite some time after they had been given their rings).

It is interesting that the appearance of the Ringwraiths comes in the same entry as "Tar-Ancalimon takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins." Could one or more of the RW, when still visible "mortal" men, have been Sauronian agents in Numenor itself?

You know, there's no reason to presuppose that this is impossible. Whoever the Witchking was, he certainly had a particular hatred, it does appear, of Arnor, and also of Gondor, and was pivotal in the loss of Elendil's line in Arvedui and Earnil.

We know that there was shipping traffic between Numenor and Middle Earth. There's no necessity, I think, to presuppose that the Nazgul of Numenorean background were all Black Numenoreans from the same region. Sauron/Annatar may well have, or could have 'seduced' (that seems to be Tolkien's favourite word for this), basically, some hapless soul, disaffected by Numenorean propriety, from anywhere! Annatar was able to befuddle the Noldor, though not in Cirdan's region, where there was some suspicion about him.

The Ost-In-Edhil was around quite a few hundred years. Sauron was at it, basically, from nigh the start of SA. He also must have spent times abroad, sometimes for years, because he was able to vanish long enough from Elven circles to build the Sammath Naur, the road to the summit of Orodruin, and the Barad Dur. Those are no small feats. The Bard Dur, I'd have thought, was kinda like building a skyscraper, but with vast dungeons, in a labyrinthine complex.

I.e. plenty of time to go find a Numenorean, in Middle Earth or on a boat from Numenor, that he gifted with a Ring.

So--

[modern reality language mode]...who hated Numenorean Faithful and who were of Numenorean descent? And enough to be so fixated on taking them down? Some disaffected prince, a jacked off distant cousin to the King/Queen of Numenor, or someone who had been publicly shamed in Numenor, or Middle Earth, either on false or real grounds. Presumably, Numenor had its criminal element, swag of thieves, property damage rebellious adolescents, substance users and those bent on sexual improprieties (Eol the Dark Elf was, for example, basically, a sex offender. He imprisoned Idril Celebrindil in his creepy tree house, and of that union Maeglin was born). I assume Sauron would have appealed to grandiosity and entitlement, whilst feeding vengeful thinking (narcissism) as he manipulated the situation. As was the case with Maeglin, I also suspect Sauron seduced by promising wealth, power, social status--and as with Maeglin--sexual entitlement, as well as enhanced sorcery. He sometimes used the word 'sorcery' to hint or suggest at a magical process that was a corrupting influence. He did so for the two Blue Wizards in that little commentary that left indications of their fates and fall into evil ways, for example, and talked about a 'sorcerer' who occupied Dol Guldur before the White Council knew it was Sauron...[/modern reality language mode]

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

(Eol the Dark Elf was, for example, basically, a sex offender. He imprisoned Idril Celebrindil in his creepy tree house, and of that union Maeglin was born)

I think you mean Aredhel Ar-Feiniel, sister of Turgon, as the spouse of Eöl. Idril was the daughter of Turgon, and Maeglin's cousin.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It is interesting that the appearance of the Ringwraiths comes in the same entry as "Tar-Ancalimon takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins." Could one or more of the RW, when still visible "mortal" men, have been Sauronian agents in Numenor itself?

My general assumption was that the three Númenórean Nazgûl would have been Lords in Middle-earth, perhaps colonial governors of the local Haradrim and so on, but I suppose there's no reason to think that they might not have been primarily based in Númenor itself given how much transit evidently existed between Middle-earth and the Land of Gift at the time. The reason I mention transit is because I would argue that Sauron probably didn't go to Númenor to dispense Rings.
As you point out WCH, the Ringwraiths appeared in 2251, thirty years into the reign of Tar-Ancalimon (2221-2386). The shadow first fell on Númenor apparently during the reign of his grandfather Tar-Ciryatan (1869-2029). The One Ring was forged c. 1600, and Sauron acquired the Nine during the War of the Elves and Sauron (1693-1701). If Sauron seized and dispensed the Nine prior to or during the reign of Tar-Ciryatan then between the War and Ciryatan's death there is a healthy time frame of 168-328 years. Perhaps the Númenórean Ringbearers might have had some influence in the descent of the shadow upon Westernesse.
If I think about it, Númenóreans would in some respects be ideal people to provide with Rings: they already had abundant resources and power to turn to their advantage, and being an already longeval people, any Ring-granted longevity would be unremarkable and no cause for suspicion. That being said, Tar-Ciryatan's corruption might also have been observed by Sauron as an opportunity to put the Rings to work, rather than the Rings sowing the seeds of corruption. Indeed personally I am more inclined to support the notion that the corruption came before the Rings, as in my opinion it is more thematically effective if Sauron is the exacerbator, rather than the originator, of the darkening of Númenor.

If I might touch upon the Mouth of Sauron, incidentally, I don't think it's necessarily implausible for us to imagine enclaves of Black Númenóreans surviving in certain places, deep in Harad and elsewhere. This is pure speculation. I simply don't think the Mouth of Sauron could have been both a) extremely ancient, and b) not a wraith.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I think you mean Aredhel Ar-Feiniel, sister of Turgon, as the spouse of Eöl. Idril was the daughter of Turgon, and Maeglin's cousin.

apologies, yes. In fact, I've repeated that error many times, over the years. crossed wire memory.

Point though, was not about genealogy. It was about Eol's sex offending and creepy tree house. Developmental delay What's a full grown elf doing playing in tree houses?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

It was about Eol's sex offending and creepy tree house. Developmental delay What's a full grown elf doing playing in tree houses?

I think Professor Tolkien was concerned by extremes and extremist philosophies. Fëanor held sway over many of the Noldor and a great deal of destruction ensued from his belief that Morgoth could be defeated militarily by his own means. One might as well have tried to hunt down and destroy the very concept of evil. By contrast, Eöl was a loner, self-isolated and reclusive. His covetousness of his family was another extreme attitude, the opposite one might say of kingly Fëanor, which also brought about a great deal of suffering in the long term.

Characters in Professor Tolkien's work always fail when they are unwilling to compromise, when they operate only in extremes and absolutes. Arda was a fallen world; having one's cake and eating it too was not just unlikely, it was a metaphysical impossibility. Relating to the topic of this thread, the Elves and the Ringwraiths are exactly the same case. The Elven-smiths believed they could build Aman in Middle-earth. This failed. Sauron believed that, with the forging of One Ring, he could in a single master-stroke instantly and irrevocably dominate forever the population of Middle-earth. Such an extremist plan could never hope to succeed. Nothing is ever 'consequence free' in Middle-earth. Nothing succeeds one hundred per cent.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

If I think about it, Númenóreans would in some respects be ideal people to provide with Rings: they already had abundant resources and power to turn to their advantage, and being an already longeval people, any Ring-granted longevity would be unremarkable and no cause for suspicion.

At the same time, the fact that the rings DO grant immortality (of a sort) might very well appeal to a corrupted Numenorean already obsessed with the "Elves live forever, why shouldn't we?" mindset that was decending in Numenor.