Arwen vs. Galadriel

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Nothing freaky about siver hair...they seem to get to be the pretty boy trophy husbands for the alpha females of middle earth, must have something going for them.

I laughed out in a roar!

*note to self* I suppose silver hair would add a splash of head turning and so, the alpha elven bois get a bit of leeway to allow some of their crappy behaviour. Still Galadriel smelled of dwarves (I mean, she loved Khazad Dum and sang dwarf songs with them...Did that make her short?) and Celeborn didn't ditch her, even though he vomited tacks and his head turned at the sight of a dwarf.

Also quite possible that Idtrl would have been creeped by Maeglin even if he weren't her cousin. It was just him....

I mean, daddy made black swords out of meteorites (remember that bit about Beleg and one of Eol's swords) that he learned to forge from Dwarves for Eru's sake! Now Idril must have thought that cous really was all a bit weird! I mean, what use is a black sword at an elfy feast where Silmaril-y songs about the Drip and the Canary (being charitable) are told!

[Galin]

[lighthearted] hahaha I hear ya - it's okay for Galadriel, isn't it! She can marry her cousin, (well, second cousin--but if you're gunna split hairs, Tolkien, really, Galadriel and Celeborn shared their grandfather in Olwe of Alqulonde, in an essay he wrote, one month before his death. His last work, in fact).

This illustrates my 'canon considerations': late-has-weight fails for me here, utterly, as Celeborn the Teler of Swanhaven contradicts author-published description. And we know Tolkien's memory was not 'retentive' in his later years, nor do we have any indication here that he was aware [at the time of writing] that he was stepping on already published material, and didn't mind.

Plus, if it helps, that gets rid of Teleporno the unfortunate name [by association] as there is no need for a Sinda of Beleriand to have a formerly Telerin name.

Or at least, maybe Telporno is better [not Teleporno], which occurs in a very late letter dated December 1972 [the very very late adumbrated tale as paraphrased employs Celeborn I think]. The loss of the vowel in question might possibly be due to syncope...

... although a trained linguist me is not

Also, in general for the thread, maybe the history falls in step with the idea that Elves matured at about the same rate as Men.

Sorry

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

snip<--utterly-->snip

That's a bit Maeglin weirded Teleporno because Galadriel grew short when she smelled of Dwarves, because utterly, is a bit utterly utterly-est-are you sure? that sure, est, un-lighted?

Late-has-weight (I like the idiom), tho, as u rightly point out, does not always imply accuracy.

Though, really, I'm not utterly utterly-est sure he (Tolkien) was so void of neuronal integrity at 73 that he would have forgotten good ole crazy alpha boi Celeborn and all that!

The distinct lineage, of Alqualonde carries some weight, imo, coz Galdriel (even as feanor's unfriend forever) was one of the Great-est uber-est. Even ranked as nigh to Feanor......so.....I've always been uncomfortable with her partnering a Teleri who never saw The Trees. It seems to me that Teleporno, for that reason, and of such high lineage, made a better match.

[edit]do u have Tolkien's ct and fMRI scans handy? Post em and let's see how much grey matter was left [/edit]

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

That's a bit Maeglin weirded Teleporno because Galadriel grew short when she smelled of Dwarves, because utterly, is a bit utterly utterly-est-are you sure? that sure, est, un-lighted?

Late-has-weight (I like the idiom), tho, as u rightly point out, does not always imply accuracy.

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking here. Am I sure Tolkien himself published that Celeborn was a Sindarin Elf?

Yes twice; although one mention fell out in the second edition.

This late version also contradicts Galadriel's role in the Rebellion in The Road Goes Ever On. And while not an impossible thing to explain, it makes me wonder why Celeborn, if 'really' from Aman that is, seemed not to want to part with Galadriel when he remained, for a time, in Middle-earth.

He didn't want to go back to Swanhaven 'so soon'? Ahem. Possibly, but it seems odd...

... and even when Tolkien spoke to why Celeborn remained for a time, part of his statement [in an letter that does not appear in The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien but was published by Hammond and Scull] included that Celeborn had never been to Aman.

[Galin]

On an aside, I'm sorry, but how on Valinor can Maeglin be a 'Dark Elf'. The text says "he was kinsman of Thingol of Doriath!" And bangs on, several times, about Eol being proudly Telerin, cross, bothered and spitting chips about all the Noldor-ish Elfy things ruining his Telerin party. Though, he has dark hair! Ha? Telerin, and all that!

Do you mean Eol, or Maeglin? If Eol he was not only a Dark-elf as in 'one of those who had not experienced the light of Valinor' but I think he was called the Dark Elf because he desired the deep shadow of the forest, loving the night and the twilight.

He was called Sun-shy at one point in the tale.

Other dark associations that might be made: it was said that Eol would go abroad clad, in some measure, in galvorn (black and shining like jet) for example.

Melian also referred to the dark heart of the Smith when describing one of his works.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

Do you mean Eol, or Maeglin? If Eol he was not only a Dark-elf as in 'one of those who had not experienced the light of Valinor' but I think he was called the Dark Elf because he desired the deep shadow of the forest, loving the night and the twilight.

He was called Sun-shy at one point in the tale.

Other dark associations that might be made: it was said that Eol would go abroad clad, in some measure, in galvorn (black and shining like jet) for example.

Melian also referred to the dark heart of the Smith when describing one of his works.

Eol -- makes sense here ...

[Mithalwen]

Well with his background a "We need to talk about Maeglin" situation was perhaps always going to be a possibility. Galadriel was said to be tallest of elven womem estimated at 6"4 and Celeborn of like height. Maybe not exceptional for an elf man though the Teleri were meant to be generally less tall than the Noldo..though the most prominent Thingol, Círdan, Celeborn are all described as tall. Who knows, maybe they are being sarcastic (cf Celeborn the Wise ), maybe it is a euphemism

[Mithalwen]

I'm really not sure Telporno is any better....

And I am loathe to lose the notion that Elves aren't full grown til 50...simply because it is nice to describe oneself as still a teenager in elf years (as opposed to long dead in dog years) but I am prepared to reconsider the evidence when I turn fifty...if Gandalf hasn't whisked me off on an adventure of course...

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I'm really not sure Telporno is any better....

And I am loathe to lose the notion that Elves aren't full grown til 50...simply because it is nice to describe oneself as still a teenager in elf years (as opposed to long dead in dog years) but I am prepared to reconsider the evidence when I turn fifty...if Gandalf hasn't whisked me off on an adventure of course...

When you invent a time machine (and someone helps out with a parallel universe thing), I'll put Turgon on Ritalin to calm him down when Eol comes into Gondolin.

[Galin]

Incidentally, if one is dealing with the 3,000 concept, while the rate to maturity seems to have diminished in Middle-earth over time, I interpret that it remained constant in Aman however. So for those Elves born in Aman, 3,000 actual years must fit [again unless Tolkien was thinking of changing the Annals to reflect this new idea, as it doesn't seemingly work that well for all events, the flight of the Noldor for example].

Tolkien makes it somewhat 'easy' however, as an Elf of 20 Valian Years is almost 3,000 years old. So for Aman the numbers will seem like a normal enough human period, by comparison. That is, if Galadriel seems to be an adult, around 20 'years' old at least, let's say, according to something in the tale, that's still enough real time.

Arwen half-elven was married when she was about this age, in Valian Years that is, or Elvish Long Years [since they are equivalent using 144].