Arwen vs. Galadriel

[Orphalesion]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

hahaha

I did love reading about Aredhel in Valinor. She was a really gung-ho, strong woman, and pretty gutsy.

Sorry no; with Aredhel I always got the impression that she was a ridiculous prima donna and a "tomboy wannabe" and only went riding and hunting with Feanor's sons because she enjoyed the attention they gave her. "Hey there Celegorm, I won't give you my heart! But feel free to get me some mead while I relax here."
Just remember that later she was to a degree forced into marriage with Eol and took ages to escape.
My mental picture of Aredhel:
http://postimg.org/image/f8voa24b1/

With Maeglin I somewhat agree: Why is okay for Aredhel to fool around with the sons of Feanor (her cousins) but Maeglin can't have Idril?
That being said, Idril did NOT want to marry Maeglin, so it makes the whole point moot. Turgon clearly loved and cherished Maeglin and Morgoth had to use his strongest mind control and torture on Maeglin to get him to betray Gondolin.

[Belegorn]

I do not believe Maeglin was ever tortured, only threatened with it, & it seems he in some part actively decided to betray the Elves of Gondolin if he could have Idril to himself.

[Orphalesion]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I do not believe Maeglin was ever tortured, only threatened with it, & it seems he in some part actively decided to betray the Elves of Gondolin if he could have Idril to himself.

Oh really? I could have sworn in at least one version he got mind controlled/tortured, though that might have really been just an abandoned idea (in the Lost Tales perhaps?) or me remembering stuff wrong.

Well then, **** Maeglin, the sniveling traitor, who's dumb enough to believe that Melkor would grant him freedom let alone Idril. Let's hope he never gets out of Mandos.

[Belegorn]

In the BoLT 2 "did Melko threaten Meglin with the torment of Balrogs" [ch. 3, p. 170] & "the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his spirit" [Sil., ch. 23, p. 299], however, Melkor did weave about Maeglin, "the spell of bottomeless dread" [BoLT 2, ch. 3, p. 171] in which "dread possessed him that Melko was ever at hand" as he left to take his place again among the Elves, "Morgoth sent him back to Gondolin, lest any should suspect the betrayal, and so that Maeglin should aid the assault from within" [Sil.,ch. 23, p. 299].

[Orphalesion]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

In the BoLT 2 "did Melko threaten Meglin with the torment of Balrogs" [ch. 3, p. 170] & "the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his spirit" [Sil., ch. 23, p. 299], however, Melkor did weave about Maeglin, "the spell of bottomeless dread" [BoLT 2, ch. 3, p. 171] in which "dread possessed him that Melko was ever at hand" as he left to take his place again among the Elves, "Morgoth sent him back to Gondolin, lest any should suspect the betrayal, and so that Maeglin should aid the assault from within" [Sil.,ch. 23, p. 299].

Ah yes, thank you that's what I remembered. Of course there was no spell of bottomless dread in the later stories. I'm a huge fan of the BoLT version of the mythology so I sometimes get the two version mixed up.

[cellurdur]

I think there are three main points I need to address. The first is my personal way of trying to decipher what Tolkien left us. I put much more weight on Christopher Tolkien's words than some do. However, these are how I tend to come my conclusions.

1. Works published by JRR Tolkien.
2. Works published by Christopher Tolkien
3. The latest workable notes that don't contradict 1 or 2.

Christopher Tolkien knew his father and his father's works infinitely better than any of us can ever hope to do. Knowing his father he said this about his father's desire to stick with things he himself had published.

When discussing the descent of Celebrimbor, he wrote this about a late note placing him as a Teleri.

"no doubt he had forgotten that theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it he would have undoubtedly have felt bound by it."-HOME XII 'Of Dwarves and Men


After this I tend to place precedent on things that Christopher Tolkien himself has published. He alone was left with sole authority to print, publish and edit what was left with the notes. Christopher Tolkien himself says it is impossible to have a definitive version of his fathers legendarium, but I give more credence to something he has published unless he explicitly states it to be a mistake.

The I take into account what Tolkien's last thoughts were on a matter as long as it does not contradict the first two precedents. However, I am not quick to dismiss detailed essays on brief notes, which at can be ambiguous at best.

[cellurdur]

Concerning the aging of the Dunedain we have some information about this in the LOTR. Aragorn at 20 years old was considered early come into manhood and still had not reached complete maturity.

"Elrond looked at him and was pleased, for he saw that he had early come into manhood, though he would yet become greater in body and mind."-Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen


Slightly before this we are given some indication about when maidens were regarded as old enough to wed. Gilraen, Aragorn's mother, was believed too young and was below the standard age of a Dunedain bride. In fact she was so young her father was going to refuse to let the marriage take place.

"To this marriage Dirhael was opposed; for Gilraen was young and had not reached the age at which the women of the Dunedain were accustomed to marry."-Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

From previous date we learn that Gilraen was born in the Third Age 2907. She wed Arathron in the Third Age 2929. We can estimate what she was either 22 or 21 at this point and considered below the general age of marirage.

If we look at the works that Tolkien did not publish we have the case of Aldarion. Aldarion only comes into manhood and full responsibility at the age of 25.

Veantur speaking to his grandson says this.

" Anardilya, the spring is drawing nigh and also the day of your full age' (for in that April Aldarion would be twenty-five years old)."-Unfinished Tales, Aldarion and Erendis

Looking at the evidence I think it's reasonable to assume that Tolkien intended for the Dunedain to reach full maturity at 25 and this would be the age where they would be acknowledged and full accepted as an adult. It also appears to be the age where they would usually be permitted to marry.

On the point of Gondorian kings having a beard, it has been many generations since Elros. We know that Elves such as Cirdan and Mahatar were supposed to have beards. The only extensive writing Tolkien had on the subject had Elves growing beards in the third part of their life. I tend to assume that either the kings of Gondor tended to finally grow beards very late in life or that after so many generations some had lost this quality.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I think there are three main points I need to address. The first is my personal way of trying to decipher what Tolkien left us. I put much more weight on Christopher Tolkien's words than some do. However, these are how I tend to come my conclusions.

1. Works published by JRR Tolkien.
2. Works published by Christopher Tolkien
3. The latest workable notes that don't contradict 1 or 2.

Christopher Tolkien knew his father and his father's works infinitely better than any of us can ever hope to do. Knowing his father he said this about his father's desire to stick with things he himself had published.

When discussing the descent of Celebrimbor, he wrote this about a late note placing him as a Teleri.

"no doubt he had forgotten that theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it he would have undoubtedly have felt bound by it."-HOME XII 'Of Dwarves and Men


After this I tend to place precedent on things that Christopher Tolkien himself has published. He alone was left with sole authority to print, publish and edit what was left with the notes. Christopher Tolkien himself says it is impossible to have a definitive version of his fathers legendarium, but I give more credence to something he has published unless he explicitly states it to be a mistake.

The I take into account what Tolkien's last thoughts were on a matter as long as it does not contradict the first two precedents. However, I am not quick to dismiss detailed essays on brief notes, which at can be ambiguous at best.

Nice points.

I add though, that what JRRT did at his death bed goes to narrative intention, and as such, I'm not partial to dismissing his will on matters of narrative purpose and about what is a position on textual pre-eminence.

That is, just because he had some forgetfulness, late in his life, what right does Chris have to unmake ( an 'un' word) his father's intention for Celeborn (Teleporno). Again, does it make sense that Galadriel, for example, would marry a Telerin sub-lord of Doriath more than grandfather Olwe's Eldar who had seen the Light of Aman?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I think there are three main points I need to address. The first is my personal way of trying to decipher what Tolkien left us. I put much more weight on Christopher Tolkien's words than some do. However, these are how I tend to come my conclusions.

1. Works published by JRR Tolkien.
2. Works published by Christopher Tolkien
3. The latest workable notes that don't contradict 1 or 2.

Christopher Tolkien knew his father and his father's works infinitely better than any of us can ever hope to do. Knowing his father he said this about his father's desire to stick with things he himself had published.

When discussing the descent of Celebrimbor, he wrote this about a late note placing him as a Teleri.

"no doubt he had forgotten that theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it he would have undoubtedly have felt bound by it."-HOME XII 'Of Dwarves and Men

I don't feel one has to know Tolkien at all to think that he would probably abide by the story in print. Even if he 'wouldn't' I think he should, as 'in print' concerns the art of subcreation. He didn't all the time, but to my mind the general concern is consistency with already published description, so as to not undermine the Subcreated World.

I often give great weight to Christopher Tolkien's opinion too, but HME clearly illustrates that he did not know very many things, despite his relationship with both his father and his father's works. And with respect to what Christopher Tolkien published as a story -- I mean he published HME and UT as well -- I see no indication that these versions were intended as 'canon', or as any ultimate statement that they represent what Tolkien desired.

For example Christopher Tolkien knew the Helm of Hador was intended to have more 'ink' and presence in the Narn, but I think it's fairly clear that he chose not to write it in because there simply wasn't enough Tolkien-written text to employ -- enough for the amount CJRT desired anyway.

Is that a reason to accept that Turin wore a Dwarf-mask when facing Glaurung, over the Helm, because JRRT didn't get around to writing 'enough' about the Helm for Christopher Tolkien to feel he could easily incorporate the idea [by trying to be more editor than 'writer' I would say]? Not for me anyway. Or do you have an alternative theory about why CJRT chose the Dwarf-mask for the constructed Narn?

I don't think it is in Christopher Tolkien's character to stamp these versions as anything that should outweigh his father's actual texts, and I don't think that's the point in constructing them. He certainly was given authority by Tolkien to edit and publish, but that isn't the same as claiming the one volume versions should have authority over his father's work.

Christopher Tolkien himself says it is impossible to have a definitive version of his fathers legendarium, but I give more credence to something he has published unless he explicitly states it to be a mistake.

Of course it is impossible, but 'mistakes' by whom? And since it was impossible to incorporate every last known idea into a one volume 'consistent' version, is it a 'mistake' not to include the longer history of the Helm of Hador for example? Or not to alter Sador -- as Tolkien intended to change this character notably, into one of the Druedain if I recall correctly. Certainly not mistakes in my opinion.

Christopher Tolkien has never, to my knowledge, pretended to be or desired to be the creator of Middle-earth, but rather he desired to provide a version of these tales for readers. That is, he could at least give readers the intended 'format' or experience, if not his father's ultimate version. And then he showed us the texts behind his constructions, in HME, with a very different, more scholarly presentation of the material he had to work with.


In any case, the matter is still not simple, which was my point. You can give your opinions on 'canon' and why you put the constructed Narn and L&C above other texts, and others will take a different approach.

So still more complicated than taking L&C alone as a given, which was my point

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Orphalesion

Sorry no; with Aredhel I always got the impression that she was a ridiculous prima donna and a "tomboy wannabe" and only went riding and hunting with Feanor's sons because she enjoyed the attention they gave her. "Hey there Celegorm, I won't give you my heart! But feel free to get me some mead while I relax here."
Just remember that later she was to a degree forced into marriage with Eol and took ages to escape.
My mental picture of Aredhel:
http://postimg.org/image/f8voa24b1/

With Maeglin I somewhat agree: Why is okay for Aredhel to fool around with the sons of Feanor (her cousins) but Maeglin can't have Idril?
That being said, Idril did NOT want to marry Maeglin, so it makes the whole point moot. Turgon clearly loved and cherished Maeglin and Morgoth had to use his strongest mind control and torture on Maeglin to get him to betray Gondolin.

HAHAHAH bring it! fun post. I suppose I take ur point, I mean, what was she doing in Valinor, all that horse-y Orome, whatever stuff. I'm seeing a white wedding-dress like outfit on a Shadow-faxy horse thing. And ah, dah Aredhel - um what the! Wearing WHITE whilst fleeing Eol with Maeglin, as she's heading for the outer gate of Gondolin in all that creepy dark vale stuff. With Ungoliant-y creatures everywhere. Yes, nice camouflage choice Aredhel!

Yes, Maeglin was pretty okay, with grand-daddy, despite the whole cliff-throwing episode. He was loyal, hardy in battle and pretty good to Turgon. And, really Tolkien? You're going to point fingers at Maeglin for having power-motives in Gondolin, where granddaddy had everything in lock down! Oh let me guess - only Noldorin 'princes' (precious) could dispossess the Teleri in Beleriand, and of course, that's all okay. Yes, the whole of Arda was just for Elvendom.

Seriously, it must have grated the Nandor, Sindar and Silvan Elves (and Tolkien says as much in several stories) to have their world run over by raging Noldor, after a Kinslaying - OMG - just to track down some stupid jewels.

Now, if that's not precious, what is?