who are the nazgul?

[mhagain]

According to the Tale of Years, the Shadow fell on Numenor about SA1800, with the Ringwraiths first appearing about SA2251.

If we cross-reference this with the Line of Elros in UT (and ignore the error which CT draws attention to in note 10 - it doesn't seem relevant to this particular discussion anyway) we see the following happening inside this time-window:

the Númenóreans in his service exacted heavy tribute from the men of the coasts of Middle-earth

This provides one obvious source for the "three great lords": they were Númenóreans in service of the King (possibly quite high-ranking officials) involved in extracting this tribute, and Sauron lured them with the Rings and promises of more temporal power.

This is, of course, purely conjectural, but it seems to fit.

There is as far as I know absolutely nothing in Tolkien suggesting that the Witch-king himself was a Númenórean (aside from a note cited by Hammond and Scull that he was "probably" one). He could just as easily have been Haradrim or Easterling. There also seems no reason for him to have any particular grudge against Númenór aside from just carrying out his masters will.

[Ivriniel]

I think it likely the Chief of the Nazgul was Numenorean. I don't have the citation, I'm lifting off the web, but Hammond & Scull, Reader's Companion, p. 20, a manuscript of notes, Tolkien [apparently] stated that the Witchking's name and background were not recorded, but that he was probably of Númenórean descent.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I think it likely the Chief of the Nazgul was Numenorean. I don't have the citation, I'm lifting off the web, but Hammond & Scull, Reader's Companion, p. 20, a manuscript of notes, Tolkien [apparently] stated that the Witchking's name and background were not recorded, but that he was probably of Númenórean descent.

In the Akallabêth it says that three of the Nazgûl were Númenórean "lords"
Also, in Letters #156 there is a footnote stating that "the wicked Kings who had become Nazgûl " were Númenóreans, Since the Witch-king was the chief of the Ringwraiths, his status as one of those Númenórean "lords" seems all but assured.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In the Akallabêth it says that three of the Nazgûl were Númenórean "lords"
Also, in Letters #156 there is a footnote stating that "the wicked Kings who had become Nazgûl " were Númenóreans, Since the Witch-king was the chief of the Ringwraiths, his status as one of those Númenórean "lords" seems all but assured.

I don't think the Letters citation is so conclusive either. It seems possible for a Númenórean "king" (perhaps of a petty-realm in Middle-earth) to become a Nazgûl but yet be submissive to a more powerful Haradrim king (as a fellow Nazgûl). It also seems probable that Sauron would grant leadership of the Nazgûl to one who had been under his dominion longer.

The second-in-command of the Nazgûl is confirmed to have been an Easterling, so therefore we know that at least two of the other Númenórean "kings" or lords who became Nazgûl were submissive to an Easterling. If two, why not three?

But on balance this can really go nowhere. The only thing is that there is no real evidence after all, and it's important to establish that the common assumption that the Witch-king must have been Númenórean has very little basis in Tolkien's writings.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by mhagain

I don't think the Letters citation is so conclusive either. It seems possible for a Númenórean "king" (perhaps of a petty-realm in Middle-earth) to become a Nazgûl but yet be submissive to a more powerful Haradrim king (as a fellow Nazgûl). It also seems probable that Sauron would grant leadership of the Nazgûl to one who had been under his dominion longer.

The second-in-command of the Nazgûl is confirmed to have been an Easterling, so therefore we know that at least two of the other Númenórean "kings" or lords who became Nazgûl were submissive to an Easterling. If two, why not three?

But on balance this can really go nowhere. The only thing is that there is no real evidence after all, and it's important to establish that the common assumption that the Witch-king must have been Númenórean has very little basis in Tolkien's writings.

Knowing the spiteful nature of Sauron, who better than a Númenórean (ie., the WitchKing of Angmar) to seek retribution against the realms of Arnor? I would assume the three Númenórean Nazgul were rebels and lords of Umbar. I don't give much stock in the WitchKing being a Haradrim, considering most of the northern area of the Haradwaith was controlled by Black Númenóreans (first referred to as the King's Men) during the time Sauron conceivably handed out the Rings.

The split between the Elendili and the King's Men occurred during Tar-Ancalimon's reign, which, coincidentally, was about the time the Nazgul emerged. There is a longstanding association among the Númenóreans with sorcery (including such later Black Númenóreans as Beruthiel and the Mouth of Sauron), so it is basically assumed that the most sorcerous of all the Nazgul is a Númenórean, because we hear very little, if any, mention of sorcery among the Haradrim or Easterlings.

But you are right, Mhagain, it is and will always be conjecture.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Knowing the spiteful nature of Sauron, who better than a Númenórean (ie., the WitchKing of Angmar) to seek retribution against the realms of Arnor? I would assume the three Númenórean Nazgul were rebels and lords of Umbar. I don't give much stock in the WitchKing being a Haradrim, considering most of the northern area of the Haradwaith was controlled by Black Númenóreans (first referred to as the King's Men) during the time Sauron conceivably handed out the Rings.

Well my confession is that I always imagined the Witch-king as a Númenórean too, but sometimes it pays to analyze and challenge one's assumptions.

I think circumstantiallly it makes sense for him to be one. Perhaps related to the royal family, a younger son or cousin, with strong ideas about how he could do better but little experience, on his first trip to Middle-earth as part of a tribute expedition. All conjectural fan-fiction.

On the other hand picture a Haradrim warlord, long under the sway of Sauron, steeped in sacrifice and dark sorceries, who's mighty ****ed at these upstart Númenóreans coming over and trying to extract tribute, when along comes opportunity in the shape of a Ring of Power into his possession.

See what I mean? Both are equally valid given what Tolkien wrote.

However:

Umbar wasn't founded until after the Nazgul first appeared, so that timeline is all wrong. Also, Angmar was Third Age but the Nazgul appeared in the Second, so I can't see that being a motive. I'd be more inclined to expect the WK to be a corrupted Faithful than a BN in origin too.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by mhagain

Well my confession is that I always imagined the Witch-king as a Númenórean too, but sometimes it pays to analyze and challenge one's assumptions.

In Pricilla, Queen of the Desert, I think it's Terrance Stamp who says "assumption is the mother of all **** up". But for a discussion about conjecture--we only have the text and its story and only have events chained by circumstance to go on.

You are, of course, right. For this one, we'll never know. We can't know categorically. Though, I'd be very surprised if the good ole Haradrim (and the Numenorean influence) wasn't something right on up there in any 'Witchking' thinking in a lot of the posters. It's clearly an alternative, and of course, an oldie but a goodie. Harad's anti Numenorean antagonism is very well developed in the reader whose gone beyond LotR.

If you want to enjoy some fan fiction about conjecture and the Haradrim, it's a great read and a lot of fun to speculate about. I've often imagined that there were cousins and disaffected relies who could have been a candidate for Mr Witchking--who had a giant chip on his shoulder--I mean--man, how many thousands of years can you hold onto a grudge! That witchking just couldn't let it go

But, as to alternatie speculation--the Shadow in Numenor was about sorcery hitting their shores, not vice-versa--not Harad's (the evil variation of magic--sorcery). Significant or not? It's a correlation, which is not causation, of course. But, in the timeline analysis, places the first darkening just past 1700 SA. Just around the time Sauron gets rather personal with Numenor, and right when he had his Nine new shiny rings in his hands. It makes sense, strategically, as a tyrannical warlord, that you'd want head honcho Witcher-oo to be someone who could tarnish the homeland--rather than Harad.....speculation, though -

cheers

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by mhagain

Well my confession is that I always imagined the Witch-king as a Númenórean too, but sometimes it pays to analyze and challenge one's assumptions.

I think circumstantiallly it makes sense for him to be one. Perhaps related to the royal family, a younger son or cousin, with strong ideas about how he could do better but little experience, on his first trip to Middle-earth as part of a tribute expedition. All conjectural fan-fiction.

On the other hand picture a Haradrim warlord, long under the sway of Sauron, steeped in sacrifice and dark sorceries, who's mighty ****ed at these upstart Númenóreans coming over and trying to extract tribute, when along comes opportunity in the shape of a Ring of Power into his possession.


See what I mean? Both are equally valid given what Tolkien wrote.

I do not think they are equal at all. The conjectural evidence still points heavily to a Númenórean rather than a Haradrim in the case of the sorcerous, necromantic WitchKing. As I inferred, there are plenty of textual references regarding Númenórean black magic, black arts and necromancy, or at least implied sorcery; whereas, I cannot find a single instance of black magic or sorcery mentioned among the Haradrim. The Númenóreans were also far longer-lived and physically stronger than other races at that period of the 2nd Age.

If you have any evidence regarding magic use among the Haradrim (or Easterlings, for that matter), please share.

Originally Posted by mhagain

However:

Umbar wasn't founded until after the Nazgul first appeared, so that timeline is all wrong. Also, Angmar was Third Age but the Nazgul appeared in the Second, so I can't see that being a motive. I'd be more inclined to expect the WK to be a corrupted Faithful than a BN in origin too.

Umbar was founded far before the Nazgul appeared, during the colonization period beginning 1800 S.A. (natural harbor and all), but it was not heavily fortified until 2280 S.A.: ("...the strength of his [Sauron's] terror and mastery over men had grown exceedingly great, he began to assail the strong places of the Númenóreans upon the shores of the sea." -- Silmarillion).

As far as I can recollect, Númenórean colonies existed far further south down the coast than Umbar.

As far as the Nazgul Witchking, I suppose I wasn't clear enough. I suspect he was one of the "King's Men", a provincial lord and sorcerer of one of the southern Númenórean territories (perhaps a ruling relative of Tar-Atanamir and Ancalimon); King's Men being the progenitors of the Black Númenórean race.

Yes, this was in the Second Age, and Angmar was Third Age, but I would expect a supernatural King's Man from the 2nd Age to still harbor hatred for the descendants of the Elendili still living in Arnor far more than a man of Harad.

Memories are long in Middle-earth.

EDIT: Another thing regarding Númenórean magical ability comes to mind:

"So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will." -- ROtK

Obviously the Númenóreans and their descendants, both the Arnorions (this smith of Westernesse) and Black Númenóreans (like Beruthiel and MoS), had such capabilities.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I think it likely the Chief of the Nazgul was Numenorean. I don't have the citation, I'm lifting off the web, but Hammond & Scull, Reader's Companion, p. 20, a manuscript of notes, Tolkien [apparently] stated that the Witchking's name and background were not recorded, but that he was probably of Númenórean descent.

That's the note I've referred to above, and is so far as I'm aware the sole indication. In full:

In the manuscript of Nomenclature Tolkien notes that 'the name and origin of the Witch-king is not recorded, but he was probably (like the Lieutenant of Barad-dur [the Mouth of Sauron]) of Númenórean descent).'

Here "Nomenclature" is the work sometimes known as Guide to Names in the Lord of the Rings (and originally published as such in A Tolkien Compass), subsequently published as Nomenclature of the Lord of the Rings in Hammond & Scull.

Even with the best of intentions this is shaky evidence. The work existed in 3 versions: an original manuscript, a subsequent typescript and a final professional typescript (which was subsequently corrected by Tolkien), and the reference to the Witch-king's origin is only noted to have been in the manuscript. It certainly doesn't appear in Hammond & Scull's edition (aside from the early reference to the manuscript, but it's not in the work itself) (I don't have A Tolkien Compass for cross-checking).

The reason for it's omission from subsequent versions could be rejection (maybe Tolkien felt it preferable to leave this matter vague), or it could be because it's not really relevant content here: it's a sign that the work was drifting away from it's original intention (to be a guide for translators) and towards introducing new story elements, after all.

Even aside from that, use of the word "probably" certainly should not be read as a definite indication.

So taken together the "evidence" amounts to:

• Use of the word "probably",
• In an earlier version,
• Which was subsequently removed,
• In a work that was intended for use by translators, not for public consumption.

None of this should be read as any kind of argument that the Witch-king was not Númenórean, of course. He could still be. It's just that the evidence for him being so is not actually very strong at all, so it's necessary to be careful about making statements or claims that depend on it.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by mhagain

(aside from a note cited by Hammond and Scull that he was "probably" one).

The "probably" is important, isn't it? The point is that we don't know. In my opinion, thematically speaking, it's important that we know as little about the Nazgûl as possible. I think their anonymity is meant to enhance their horror.
I don't think it's unreasonable for the Lord of the Nazgûl to have been a Númenórean, but yes it's important to remember that he wasn't necessarily one.

Originally Posted by mhagain

There also seems no reason for him to have any particular grudge against Númenór aside from just carrying out his masters will.

I agree. In fact taking a Ring actually seems to be quite compatible with the fallen Númenórean mindset.

Originally Posted by mhagain

According to the Tale of Years, the Shadow fell on Numenor about SA1800, with the Ringwraiths first appearing about SA2251.

I suppose it depends how long it took for them to become wraiths, because 2251 is only 30 years after the reign of Tar-Atanamir when the tribute was exacted and 222 years after his reign began. If they received their rings during the tribute period, ie during the reign of Tar-Atanamir at some point, that's not that much time for a Númenórean to exceed his natural lifespan. But I suppose it could be enough depending on how old they were and how quickly the Rings worked.
The Númenóreans had been settling Middle-earth during the reign of Tar-Minastir, Tar-Ciryatan's grandfather, however, which was still about a century after the War of the Elves and Sauron, so there were plenty of opportunities when Sauron might have been dispensing Rings.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I suppose it depends how long it took for them to become wraiths, because 2251 is only 30 years after the reign of Tar-Atanamir when the tribute was exacted and 222 years after his reign began. If they received their rings during the tribute period, ie during the reign of Tar-Atanamir at some point, that's not that much time for a Númenórean to exceed his natural lifespan. But I suppose it could be enough depending on how old they were and how quickly the Rings worked.
The Númenóreans had been settling Middle-earth during the reign of Tar-Minastir, Tar-Ciryatan's grandfather, however, which was still about a century after the War of the Elves and Sauron, so there were plenty of opportunities when Sauron might have been dispensing Rings.

This is an interesting question, but I don't think you can set a fixed time from receipt of a Ring to becoming a Ringwraith.

Gandalf's words to Frodo in Shadow of the Past are the best indication I can find:

A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and
walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later – later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last – sooner or later the dark power will devour him.

From this it seems to be the case that it's not exceeding your lifespan that makes you a wraith, it's using the Ring often. Also, if you're well-meaning or if you're particularly strong, the process takes longer.

Smeagol/Gollum had the Ring for about 600 years, but "it was long since he had worn it much: in the black darkness it was seldom needed" so he didn't become a wraith. As Hobbit-kind he was more resilient too, of course. Bilbo had it for 60, and was already starting to feel "all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean: like butter that has been scraped over too much bread". Also a Hobbit, also more resilient.

I think taking a median-point in Atanamir's reign and assuming that they used the Rings a lot, 100 years would be plenty of time for an already corrupted Man to become a Ringwraith. A total guess of course but it seems reasonable.