who are the nazgul?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I think it likely the Chief of the Nazgul was Numenorean. I don't have the citation, I'm lifting off the web, but Hammond & Scull, Reader's Companion, p. 20, a manuscript of notes, Tolkien [apparently] stated that the Witchking's name and background were not recorded, but that he was probably of Númenórean descent.

In the Akallabêth it says that three of the Nazgûl were Númenórean "lords"
Also, in Letters #156 there is a footnote stating that "the wicked Kings who had become Nazgûl " were Númenóreans, Since the Witch-king was the chief of the Ringwraiths, his status as one of those Númenórean "lords" seems all but assured.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In the Akallabêth it says that three of the Nazgûl were Númenórean "lords"
Also, in Letters #156 there is a footnote stating that "the wicked Kings who had become Nazgûl " were Númenóreans, Since the Witch-king was the chief of the Ringwraiths, his status as one of those Númenórean "lords" seems all but assured.

I don't think the Letters citation is so conclusive either. It seems possible for a Númenórean "king" (perhaps of a petty-realm in Middle-earth) to become a Nazgûl but yet be submissive to a more powerful Haradrim king (as a fellow Nazgûl). It also seems probable that Sauron would grant leadership of the Nazgûl to one who had been under his dominion longer.

The second-in-command of the Nazgûl is confirmed to have been an Easterling, so therefore we know that at least two of the other Númenórean "kings" or lords who became Nazgûl were submissive to an Easterling. If two, why not three?

But on balance this can really go nowhere. The only thing is that there is no real evidence after all, and it's important to establish that the common assumption that the Witch-king must have been Númenórean has very little basis in Tolkien's writings.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by mhagain

I don't think the Letters citation is so conclusive either. It seems possible for a Númenórean "king" (perhaps of a petty-realm in Middle-earth) to become a Nazgûl but yet be submissive to a more powerful Haradrim king (as a fellow Nazgûl). It also seems probable that Sauron would grant leadership of the Nazgûl to one who had been under his dominion longer.

The second-in-command of the Nazgûl is confirmed to have been an Easterling, so therefore we know that at least two of the other Númenórean "kings" or lords who became Nazgûl were submissive to an Easterling. If two, why not three?

But on balance this can really go nowhere. The only thing is that there is no real evidence after all, and it's important to establish that the common assumption that the Witch-king must have been Númenórean has very little basis in Tolkien's writings.

Knowing the spiteful nature of Sauron, who better than a Númenórean (ie., the WitchKing of Angmar) to seek retribution against the realms of Arnor? I would assume the three Númenórean Nazgul were rebels and lords of Umbar. I don't give much stock in the WitchKing being a Haradrim, considering most of the northern area of the Haradwaith was controlled by Black Númenóreans (first referred to as the King's Men) during the time Sauron conceivably handed out the Rings.

The split between the Elendili and the King's Men occurred during Tar-Ancalimon's reign, which, coincidentally, was about the time the Nazgul emerged. There is a longstanding association among the Númenóreans with sorcery (including such later Black Númenóreans as Beruthiel and the Mouth of Sauron), so it is basically assumed that the most sorcerous of all the Nazgul is a Númenórean, because we hear very little, if any, mention of sorcery among the Haradrim or Easterlings.

But you are right, Mhagain, it is and will always be conjecture.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Knowing the spiteful nature of Sauron, who better than a Númenórean (ie., the WitchKing of Angmar) to seek retribution against the realms of Arnor? I would assume the three Númenórean Nazgul were rebels and lords of Umbar. I don't give much stock in the WitchKing being a Haradrim, considering most of the northern area of the Haradwaith was controlled by Black Númenóreans (first referred to as the King's Men) during the time Sauron conceivably handed out the Rings.

Well my confession is that I always imagined the Witch-king as a Númenórean too, but sometimes it pays to analyze and challenge one's assumptions.

I think circumstantiallly it makes sense for him to be one. Perhaps related to the royal family, a younger son or cousin, with strong ideas about how he could do better but little experience, on his first trip to Middle-earth as part of a tribute expedition. All conjectural fan-fiction.

On the other hand picture a Haradrim warlord, long under the sway of Sauron, steeped in sacrifice and dark sorceries, who's mighty ****ed at these upstart Númenóreans coming over and trying to extract tribute, when along comes opportunity in the shape of a Ring of Power into his possession.

See what I mean? Both are equally valid given what Tolkien wrote.

However:

Umbar wasn't founded until after the Nazgul first appeared, so that timeline is all wrong. Also, Angmar was Third Age but the Nazgul appeared in the Second, so I can't see that being a motive. I'd be more inclined to expect the WK to be a corrupted Faithful than a BN in origin too.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by mhagain

Well my confession is that I always imagined the Witch-king as a Númenórean too, but sometimes it pays to analyze and challenge one's assumptions.

In Pricilla, Queen of the Desert, I think it's Terrance Stamp who says "assumption is the mother of all **** up". But for a discussion about conjecture--we only have the text and its story and only have events chained by circumstance to go on.

You are, of course, right. For this one, we'll never know. We can't know categorically. Though, I'd be very surprised if the good ole Haradrim (and the Numenorean influence) wasn't something right on up there in any 'Witchking' thinking in a lot of the posters. It's clearly an alternative, and of course, an oldie but a goodie. Harad's anti Numenorean antagonism is very well developed in the reader whose gone beyond LotR.

If you want to enjoy some fan fiction about conjecture and the Haradrim, it's a great read and a lot of fun to speculate about. I've often imagined that there were cousins and disaffected relies who could have been a candidate for Mr Witchking--who had a giant chip on his shoulder--I mean--man, how many thousands of years can you hold onto a grudge! That witchking just couldn't let it go

But, as to alternatie speculation--the Shadow in Numenor was about sorcery hitting their shores, not vice-versa--not Harad's (the evil variation of magic--sorcery). Significant or not? It's a correlation, which is not causation, of course. But, in the timeline analysis, places the first darkening just past 1700 SA. Just around the time Sauron gets rather personal with Numenor, and right when he had his Nine new shiny rings in his hands. It makes sense, strategically, as a tyrannical warlord, that you'd want head honcho Witcher-oo to be someone who could tarnish the homeland--rather than Harad.....speculation, though -

cheers

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by mhagain

Well my confession is that I always imagined the Witch-king as a Númenórean too, but sometimes it pays to analyze and challenge one's assumptions.

I think circumstantiallly it makes sense for him to be one. Perhaps related to the royal family, a younger son or cousin, with strong ideas about how he could do better but little experience, on his first trip to Middle-earth as part of a tribute expedition. All conjectural fan-fiction.

On the other hand picture a Haradrim warlord, long under the sway of Sauron, steeped in sacrifice and dark sorceries, who's mighty ****ed at these upstart Númenóreans coming over and trying to extract tribute, when along comes opportunity in the shape of a Ring of Power into his possession.


See what I mean? Both are equally valid given what Tolkien wrote.

I do not think they are equal at all. The conjectural evidence still points heavily to a Númenórean rather than a Haradrim in the case of the sorcerous, necromantic WitchKing. As I inferred, there are plenty of textual references regarding Númenórean black magic, black arts and necromancy, or at least implied sorcery; whereas, I cannot find a single instance of black magic or sorcery mentioned among the Haradrim. The Númenóreans were also far longer-lived and physically stronger than other races at that period of the 2nd Age.

If you have any evidence regarding magic use among the Haradrim (or Easterlings, for that matter), please share.

Originally Posted by mhagain

However:

Umbar wasn't founded until after the Nazgul first appeared, so that timeline is all wrong. Also, Angmar was Third Age but the Nazgul appeared in the Second, so I can't see that being a motive. I'd be more inclined to expect the WK to be a corrupted Faithful than a BN in origin too.

Umbar was founded far before the Nazgul appeared, during the colonization period beginning 1800 S.A. (natural harbor and all), but it was not heavily fortified until 2280 S.A.: ("...the strength of his [Sauron's] terror and mastery over men had grown exceedingly great, he began to assail the strong places of the Númenóreans upon the shores of the sea." -- Silmarillion).

As far as I can recollect, Númenórean colonies existed far further south down the coast than Umbar.

As far as the Nazgul Witchking, I suppose I wasn't clear enough. I suspect he was one of the "King's Men", a provincial lord and sorcerer of one of the southern Númenórean territories (perhaps a ruling relative of Tar-Atanamir and Ancalimon); King's Men being the progenitors of the Black Númenórean race.

Yes, this was in the Second Age, and Angmar was Third Age, but I would expect a supernatural King's Man from the 2nd Age to still harbor hatred for the descendants of the Elendili still living in Arnor far more than a man of Harad.

Memories are long in Middle-earth.

EDIT: Another thing regarding Númenórean magical ability comes to mind:

"So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will." -- ROtK

Obviously the Númenóreans and their descendants, both the Arnorions (this smith of Westernesse) and Black Númenóreans (like Beruthiel and MoS), had such capabilities.

[Ivriniel]

Yes, sounds clear here. We have sorcery's black touch in Numenor, and in Khamul of the Easterlings. There's reference to it, even in The Blue Wizards, who went into the East and, in some text references, succumbed to evil in Sorcery.

I haven't read any references to sorcery in the peoples of Harad.

We also know that Umbar was founded in 2280, and I seem to recall that Elros's bloodline made a showing there, at least as a cousin or relative, at some point (my memory is fuzzy about Umbar. It has been over 20 years since I reviewed this stuff).

From 1695 SA (Sauron's attack on the Mirdain) to 1700 SA (Tar Minastir's 'humiliating' defeat of Sauron), we're at 1800. 700 years until Nazgul appear, places us 2500, SA. I don't know how long a Ring took to exert its influence, but 2280 and 2500 is 220 years. I would say, then that this may suggest the 'guy with the grudge against Elros from Numenor'--Witchking--probably came from Numenorean stock before Umbar. There were plenty of Numenorean settlements and Lords of Andunie flexing their muscles in Middle Earth extracting bounty, all along the coast of ME, from South of Lindon, all the way to south of Harad......

Do you think the Ring bearer ever made a presence in Numenor?

[mhagain]

The Tale of Years entry for SA2280 has:

Umbar is made into a great fortress of Númenor.

Of course the Numenoreans could have had strong places by the sea before then.

The conjectural evidence still points heavily to a Númenórean rather than a Haradrim in the case of the sorcerous, necromantic WitchKing

I don't disagree with the conjectural evidence, but consider: the text states that the Witch-king became a sorceror after he recieved the Ring, not that he was one before:

Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old.

It hardly seems relevant whether or not he was from a culture steeped in sorcery before.

Likewise, he hardly needs to be long-lived. Bilbo was almost corrupted in just 60 years and he was a more resilient Hobbit, of good will, and who didn't use the Ring much, and these are the key deciding factors according to Gandalf (see above for the quote). The amount of time you have the Ring for isn't really what's important: Khamul as an Easterling wasn't long-lived either.

Speaking of Khamul, he was likely also a sorceror as a Ringwraith so if true that just serves to underline that prior culture is really unimportant.

As I said before, this is really just arguing the toss. I personally consider it most likely that the Witch-king actually was a Numenorean but it is interesting and informative to deconstruct something taken for granted.