Can atheists appreciate/understand Lord of the Ring? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Tar-Verimuchli · 07-18-2014, 01:08 AM

This is my first post on an interesting topic. I'm about as hard/strong/positive atheist as is possible and I have no problem understanding or appreciating Tolkien. There seems an obvious difference between understanding an ideology and believing it. Most atheists in my experience have a pretty good understanding of the dominant faith in their culture as they really need to understand it to reject it rather than take a neutral agnostic position. Besides, there are obvious differences, e.g. God moves in mysterious ways but Eru mainly uses eagles.

IxnaY AintsaY · 07-18-2014, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tar-Verimuchli

God moves in mysterious ways but Eru mainly uses eagles.

Hey, I've seen that bumper sticker!

Tar-Verimuchli · 07-19-2014, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IxnaY AintsaY

Hey, I've seen that bumper sticker!

This one is better.

Faramir Jones · 07-31-2014, 07:52 AM

This thread has been a very interesting one so far, though I think it got sidetracked for a while.

My own answer, based on my experience of fellow fans, is 'Yes'. Those I have been involved with have been of various faiths, none, or agnostic. All appeared to be very appreciative or understanding of The Lord of the Rings, and other works by Tolkien.

Obviously, to have such an appreciation or understanding, a person should develop a knowledge of the writer, a Roman Catholic in that part of the United Kingdom called England, born to a particular social background, and in a particular period in history. He believed his faith to be a fundamental part of who he was, including his writings. In my opinion, while Middle-earth was a pre-Christian world, it was one influenced by Catholic moral teaching.

Anyone can develop such a knowledge, regardless of his or her feelings towards the faith Tolkien professed and believed in. Someone raised as a Roman Catholic may have an initial advantage over others in beginning to appreciate or understand Tolkien, regardless of whether he or she continues in that faith in later life, as long as he or she pays attention at the time.

That's my personal opinion.

Tar-Verimuchli · 08-08-2014, 02:12 AM

I think the only element of Tolkien's fictional world that I find awkward (rather than appreciate or understand) as an Atheist is the Tale of Adanel with Eru speaking to men as a voice in their hearts but not providing any answers to their questions. I find this awkward because it's a familiar argument used to explain why the Abrahamic God requires blind faith and punishes skeptics with eternal damnation transposed to Tolkien's world. It's also even more illogical in Middle Earth because men are required to have 'faith' and are punished for seeking knowledge whereas Orome is sent to the elves and they are given proof, taken to Valinor and given knowledge by the Valar. That said, it's probably intended by Tolkien to be a mannish myth/parable.

Faramir Jones · 08-16-2014, 10:19 AM

Welcome to the Downs, Tar-Verimuchli!

What you said here was very interesting:

I think the only element of Tolkien's fictional world that I find awkward (rather than appreciate or understand) as an Atheist is the Tale of Adanel with Eru speaking to men as a voice in their hearts but not providing any answers to their questions. I find this awkward because it's a familiar argument used to explain why the Abrahamic God requires blind faith and punishes skeptics with eternal damnation transposed to Tolkien's world. It's also even more illogical in Middle Earth because men are required to have 'faith' and are punished for seeking knowledge whereas Orome is sent to the elves and they are given proof, taken to Valinor and given knowledge by the Valar. That said, it's probably intended by Tolkien to be a mannish myth/parable.

The issue with the elves was that the Valar wanted to encourage them to come to Valinor, in order to protect them; so their leaders were brought there in the hope that they would persuade their people to go there. While many do, some do not. As we know, some of those who came there later rebelled and returned to Middle-earth, showing the strategy to be unsuccessful.

Also, Valinor is a hallowed place, hallowed because of the deathless (later including elves) being present. Elves live as long as Arda, but the downside is that they become burdened by its sorrows, and envy the Gift of Men, given by Eru to the latter, which allows them, after death, to go beyond Arda and the Music of the Ainur.

Tar-Verimuchli · 08-16-2014, 10:50 AM

Thanks for the welcome, Faramir Jones. I was particularly referring to the part of the tale of Adanel which implies that men were originally intended to be immortal or very long lived as they only start dying when they all bow to Melkor and are judged by Iluvatar. As an atheist, I find the notion that all men are punished due to original sin/'sons bearing the sins of the fathers' inherently unjust and the notion that a omnipotent/omnipresent God would speak to everyone as an internal voice which non-believers refuse to hear an excuse for unreasoning faith. That said I think either Finrod or Andreth or both acknowledge that it may be a parable or not accurate due to successive retellings through generations. That would fit with Tolkien considering making 'unscientific' elements of the history of Middle Earth elements like the flat world into mannish myths.

07-31-2014, 07:52 AM	#4
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	Yes This thread has been a very interesting one so far, though I think it got sidetracked for a while. My own answer, based on my experience of fellow fans, is 'Yes'. Those I have been involved with have been of various faiths, none, or agnostic. All appeared to be very appreciative or understanding of The Lord of the Rings, and other works by Tolkien. Obviously, to have such an appreciation or understanding, a person should develop a knowledge of the writer, a Roman Catholic in that part of the United Kingdom called England, born to a particular social background, and in a particular period in history. He believed his faith to be a fundamental part of who he was, including his writings. In my opinion, while Middle-earth was a pre-Christian world, it was one influenced by Catholic moral teaching. Anyone can develop such a knowledge, regardless of his or her feelings towards the faith Tolkien professed and believed in. Someone raised as a Roman Catholic may have an initial advantage over others in beginning to appreciate or understand Tolkien, regardless of whether he or she continues in that faith in later life, as long as he or she pays attention at the time. That's my personal opinion.

08-16-2014, 10:19 AM	#6
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	Welcome! Welcome to the Downs, Tar-Verimuchli! What you said here was very interesting: I think the only element of Tolkien's fictional world that I find awkward (rather than appreciate or understand) as an Atheist is the Tale of Adanel with Eru speaking to men as a voice in their hearts but not providing any answers to their questions. I find this awkward because it's a familiar argument used to explain why the Abrahamic God requires blind faith and punishes skeptics with eternal damnation transposed to Tolkien's world. It's also even more illogical in Middle Earth because men are required to have 'faith' and are punished for seeking knowledge whereas Orome is sent to the elves and they are given proof, taken to Valinor and given knowledge by the Valar. That said, it's probably intended by Tolkien to be a mannish myth/parable. The issue with the elves was that the Valar wanted to encourage them to come to Valinor, in order to protect them; so their leaders were brought there in the hope that they would persuade their people to go there. While many do, some do not. As we know, some of those who came there later rebelled and returned to Middle-earth, showing the strategy to be unsuccessful. Also, Valinor is a hallowed place, hallowed because of the deathless (later including elves) being present. Elves live as long as Arda, but the downside is that they become burdened by its sorrows, and envy the Gift of Men, given by Eru to the latter, which allows them, after death, to go beyond Arda and the Music of the Ainur.

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07-18-2014, 01:08 AM	#1
Tar-Verimuchli Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 21	This is my first post on an interesting topic. I'm about as hard/strong/positive atheist as is possible and I have no problem understanding or appreciating Tolkien. There seems an obvious difference between understanding an ideology and believing it. Most atheists in my experience have a pretty good understanding of the dominant faith in their culture as they really need to understand it to reject it rather than take a neutral agnostic position. Besides, there are obvious differences, e.g. God moves in mysterious ways but Eru mainly uses eagles.

08-08-2014, 02:12 AM	#5
Tar-Verimuchli Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 21	I think the only element of Tolkien's fictional world that I find awkward (rather than appreciate or understand) as an Atheist is the Tale of Adanel with Eru speaking to men as a voice in their hearts but not providing any answers to their questions. I find this awkward because it's a familiar argument used to explain why the Abrahamic God requires blind faith and punishes skeptics with eternal damnation transposed to Tolkien's world. It's also even more illogical in Middle Earth because men are required to have 'faith' and are punished for seeking knowledge whereas Orome is sent to the elves and they are given proof, taken to Valinor and given knowledge by the Valar. That said, it's probably intended by Tolkien to be a mannish myth/parable.

08-16-2014, 10:50 AM	#7
Tar-Verimuchli Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 21	Thanks for the welcome, Faramir Jones. I was particularly referring to the part of the tale of Adanel which implies that men were originally intended to be immortal or very long lived as they only start dying when they all bow to Melkor and are judged by Iluvatar. As an atheist, I find the notion that all men are punished due to original sin/'sons bearing the sins of the fathers' inherently unjust and the notion that a omnipotent/omnipresent God would speak to everyone as an internal voice which non-believers refuse to hear an excuse for unreasoning faith. That said I think either Finrod or Andreth or both acknowledge that it may be a parable or not accurate due to successive retellings through generations. That would fit with Tolkien considering making 'unscientific' elements of the history of Middle Earth elements like the flat world into mannish myths.