Can atheists appreciate/understand Lord of the Ring? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

IxnaY AintsaY · 07-18-2014, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tar-Verimuchli

God moves in mysterious ways but Eru mainly uses eagles.

Hey, I've seen that bumper sticker!

Tar-Verimuchli · 07-19-2014, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IxnaY AintsaY

Hey, I've seen that bumper sticker!

This one is better.

Faramir Jones · 07-31-2014, 07:52 AM

This thread has been a very interesting one so far, though I think it got sidetracked for a while.

My own answer, based on my experience of fellow fans, is 'Yes'. Those I have been involved with have been of various faiths, none, or agnostic. All appeared to be very appreciative or understanding of The Lord of the Rings, and other works by Tolkien.

Obviously, to have such an appreciation or understanding, a person should develop a knowledge of the writer, a Roman Catholic in that part of the United Kingdom called England, born to a particular social background, and in a particular period in history. He believed his faith to be a fundamental part of who he was, including his writings. In my opinion, while Middle-earth was a pre-Christian world, it was one influenced by Catholic moral teaching.

Anyone can develop such a knowledge, regardless of his or her feelings towards the faith Tolkien professed and believed in. Someone raised as a Roman Catholic may have an initial advantage over others in beginning to appreciate or understand Tolkien, regardless of whether he or she continues in that faith in later life, as long as he or she pays attention at the time.

That's my personal opinion.

Tar-Verimuchli · 08-08-2014, 02:12 AM

I think the only element of Tolkien's fictional world that I find awkward (rather than appreciate or understand) as an Atheist is the Tale of Adanel with Eru speaking to men as a voice in their hearts but not providing any answers to their questions. I find this awkward because it's a familiar argument used to explain why the Abrahamic God requires blind faith and punishes skeptics with eternal damnation transposed to Tolkien's world. It's also even more illogical in Middle Earth because men are required to have 'faith' and are punished for seeking knowledge whereas Orome is sent to the elves and they are given proof, taken to Valinor and given knowledge by the Valar. That said, it's probably intended by Tolkien to be a mannish myth/parable.

Faramir Jones · 08-16-2014, 10:19 AM

Welcome to the Downs, Tar-Verimuchli!

What you said here was very interesting:

I think the only element of Tolkien's fictional world that I find awkward (rather than appreciate or understand) as an Atheist is the Tale of Adanel with Eru speaking to men as a voice in their hearts but not providing any answers to their questions. I find this awkward because it's a familiar argument used to explain why the Abrahamic God requires blind faith and punishes skeptics with eternal damnation transposed to Tolkien's world. It's also even more illogical in Middle Earth because men are required to have 'faith' and are punished for seeking knowledge whereas Orome is sent to the elves and they are given proof, taken to Valinor and given knowledge by the Valar. That said, it's probably intended by Tolkien to be a mannish myth/parable.

The issue with the elves was that the Valar wanted to encourage them to come to Valinor, in order to protect them; so their leaders were brought there in the hope that they would persuade their people to go there. While many do, some do not. As we know, some of those who came there later rebelled and returned to Middle-earth, showing the strategy to be unsuccessful.

Also, Valinor is a hallowed place, hallowed because of the deathless (later including elves) being present. Elves live as long as Arda, but the downside is that they become burdened by its sorrows, and envy the Gift of Men, given by Eru to the latter, which allows them, after death, to go beyond Arda and the Music of the Ainur.

Tar-Verimuchli · 08-16-2014, 10:50 AM

Thanks for the welcome, Faramir Jones. I was particularly referring to the part of the tale of Adanel which implies that men were originally intended to be immortal or very long lived as they only start dying when they all bow to Melkor and are judged by Iluvatar. As an atheist, I find the notion that all men are punished due to original sin/'sons bearing the sins of the fathers' inherently unjust and the notion that a omnipotent/omnipresent God would speak to everyone as an internal voice which non-believers refuse to hear an excuse for unreasoning faith. That said I think either Finrod or Andreth or both acknowledge that it may be a parable or not accurate due to successive retellings through generations. That would fit with Tolkien considering making 'unscientific' elements of the history of Middle Earth elements like the flat world into mannish myths.

FerniesApple · 08-22-2014, 02:50 PM

When the OP says 'atheist' does he/she mean someone who doesnt believe in modern organized religion like Christianity. or ALL religion? I suppose an atheist doesnt believe in God, but do they have spirituality of any kind? I am not sure about the definitions. Can one be a Druid and an atheist?
Anyway I think its perfectly possible to be an atheist and understand Tolkien, the moral codes Tolkien writes about are cultural as well as Catholic, its not mutually exclusive. If Tolkien was inspired by Viking/Nordic myths, they arent Christian are they, they are probably pagan.

Faramir Jones · 08-23-2014, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tar-Verimuchli

Thanks for the welcome, Faramir Jones. I was particularly referring to the part of the tale of Adanel which implies that men were originally intended to be immortal or very long lived as they only start dying when they all bow to Melkor and are judged by Iluvatar. As an atheist, I find the notion that all men are punished due to original sin/'sons bearing the sins of the fathers' inherently unjust and the notion that a omnipotent/omnipresent God would speak to everyone as an internal voice which non-believers refuse to hear an excuse for unreasoning faith. That said I think either Finrod or Andreth or both acknowledge that it may be a parable or not accurate due to successive retellings through generations. That would fit with Tolkien considering making 'unscientific' elements of the history of Middle Earth elements like the flat world into mannish myths.

Glad to have you here.

There are a lot of issues with the tale of Adanel, which have been discussed on the Downs, including on this thread:

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ghlight=Adanel

As you said, the teller and listener are aware that, even if the former is accurately telling the latter what she was herself told, the tale may have changed significantly over generations due to the successive retellings.

There's also the fact that the text we have was not intended for publication by Tolkien, being a rough draft, and not therefore an accurate expression of his views. This is quite apart from the fact that he wanted to overhaul the whole matter of the awakening of Man and what followed.

Looking at the issue of atheism in Tolkien's world, I recall that Sauron, after surrendering to Ar-Pharazôn, being brought captive to Númenor, then becoming that king's favourite, eventually argued that Eru didn't exist, being merely an invention of the Valar.

This argument appears to have won over Pharazôn and most of his people, the Downfall being the end result.

07-31-2014, 07:52 AM	#3
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	Yes This thread has been a very interesting one so far, though I think it got sidetracked for a while. My own answer, based on my experience of fellow fans, is 'Yes'. Those I have been involved with have been of various faiths, none, or agnostic. All appeared to be very appreciative or understanding of The Lord of the Rings, and other works by Tolkien. Obviously, to have such an appreciation or understanding, a person should develop a knowledge of the writer, a Roman Catholic in that part of the United Kingdom called England, born to a particular social background, and in a particular period in history. He believed his faith to be a fundamental part of who he was, including his writings. In my opinion, while Middle-earth was a pre-Christian world, it was one influenced by Catholic moral teaching. Anyone can develop such a knowledge, regardless of his or her feelings towards the faith Tolkien professed and believed in. Someone raised as a Roman Catholic may have an initial advantage over others in beginning to appreciate or understand Tolkien, regardless of whether he or she continues in that faith in later life, as long as he or she pays attention at the time. That's my personal opinion.

08-16-2014, 10:19 AM	#5
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	Welcome! Welcome to the Downs, Tar-Verimuchli! What you said here was very interesting: I think the only element of Tolkien's fictional world that I find awkward (rather than appreciate or understand) as an Atheist is the Tale of Adanel with Eru speaking to men as a voice in their hearts but not providing any answers to their questions. I find this awkward because it's a familiar argument used to explain why the Abrahamic God requires blind faith and punishes skeptics with eternal damnation transposed to Tolkien's world. It's also even more illogical in Middle Earth because men are required to have 'faith' and are punished for seeking knowledge whereas Orome is sent to the elves and they are given proof, taken to Valinor and given knowledge by the Valar. That said, it's probably intended by Tolkien to be a mannish myth/parable. The issue with the elves was that the Valar wanted to encourage them to come to Valinor, in order to protect them; so their leaders were brought there in the hope that they would persuade their people to go there. While many do, some do not. As we know, some of those who came there later rebelled and returned to Middle-earth, showing the strategy to be unsuccessful. Also, Valinor is a hallowed place, hallowed because of the deathless (later including elves) being present. Elves live as long as Arda, but the downside is that they become burdened by its sorrows, and envy the Gift of Men, given by Eru to the latter, which allows them, after death, to go beyond Arda and the Music of the Ainur.

08-08-2014, 02:12 AM	#4
Tar-Verimuchli Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 21	I think the only element of Tolkien's fictional world that I find awkward (rather than appreciate or understand) as an Atheist is the Tale of Adanel with Eru speaking to men as a voice in their hearts but not providing any answers to their questions. I find this awkward because it's a familiar argument used to explain why the Abrahamic God requires blind faith and punishes skeptics with eternal damnation transposed to Tolkien's world. It's also even more illogical in Middle Earth because men are required to have 'faith' and are punished for seeking knowledge whereas Orome is sent to the elves and they are given proof, taken to Valinor and given knowledge by the Valar. That said, it's probably intended by Tolkien to be a mannish myth/parable.

08-16-2014, 10:50 AM	#6
Tar-Verimuchli Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 21	Thanks for the welcome, Faramir Jones. I was particularly referring to the part of the tale of Adanel which implies that men were originally intended to be immortal or very long lived as they only start dying when they all bow to Melkor and are judged by Iluvatar. As an atheist, I find the notion that all men are punished due to original sin/'sons bearing the sins of the fathers' inherently unjust and the notion that a omnipotent/omnipresent God would speak to everyone as an internal voice which non-believers refuse to hear an excuse for unreasoning faith. That said I think either Finrod or Andreth or both acknowledge that it may be a parable or not accurate due to successive retellings through generations. That would fit with Tolkien considering making 'unscientific' elements of the history of Middle Earth elements like the flat world into mannish myths.

08-22-2014, 02:50 PM	#7
FerniesApple Haunting Spirit Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 92	When the OP says 'atheist' does he/she mean someone who doesnt believe in modern organized religion like Christianity. or ALL religion? I suppose an atheist doesnt believe in God, but do they have spirituality of any kind? I am not sure about the definitions. Can one be a Druid and an atheist? Anyway I think its perfectly possible to be an atheist and understand Tolkien, the moral codes Tolkien writes about are cultural as well as Catholic, its not mutually exclusive. If Tolkien was inspired by Viking/Nordic myths, they arent Christian are they, they are probably pagan.