What if Gollum had lived?

[Moonraker]

Did Gandalf or anyone else have a duty of care to Gollum in the event he did survive? He did commit some serious crimes, such as murdering Deagol, and biting off the finger of Frodo, as well as the attempted murder of Frodo and Sam. But the influence of the Ring was obviously what Gandalf would have thought was the reason Gollum behaved as he did, and was therefore not guilty on grounds of diminished responsibility. Maybe a short retirement in the woodland realm under the care of the Wood Elves would be more realistic that getting Bed & Breakfast at Bag End.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Did Gandalf or anyone else have a duty of care to Gollum in the event he did survive? He did commit some serious crimes, such as murdering Deagol, and biting off the finger of Frodo, as well as the attempted murder of Frodo and Sam. But the influence of the Ring was obviously what Gandalf would have thought was the reason Gollum behaved as he did, and was therefore not guilty on grounds of diminished responsibility. Maybe a short retirement in the woodland realm under the care of the Wood Elves would be more realistic that getting Bed & Breakfast at Bag End.

The fact that the Ring was a heavy influence on Gollum's deeds was a factor in meriting forgiveness from Frodo and Sam, but it did not entitle him to retirement care. It should be remembered that Gollum's mean and malicious nature allowed the Ring to more easily affect him to such a degree.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The fact that the Ring was a heavy influence on Gollum's deeds was a factor in meriting forgiveness from Frodo and Sam, but it did not entitle him to retirement care. It should be remembered that Gollum's mean and malicious nature allowed the Ring to more easily affect him to such a degree.

Gandalf certainly could not have allowed Gollum to walk freely in Middle Earth on the premise that he was a deranged, twisted and tormented murderer. He would have had to come under the care of some folk until he died. I was hoping the end of the Ring would have broken the evil spell bestalled on Gollum, so that he may begin to recover. But old age would soon cripple him to death even still.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

And yet but for Sam's clumsiness and protectiveness towards Frodo Gollum might have repented.

Letters #96

...For myself, I was prob. most moved by Sam's disquisition on the seamless web of story,
and by the scene when Frodo goes to sleep on his breast, and the tragedy of Gollum who at that moment
came within a hair of repentence-but for one rough word from Sam.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

And yet but for Sam's clumsiness and protectiveness towards Frodo Gollum might have repented.

Letters #96

Repented for how long? Surely the realisation that Frodo was on a quest to destroy the Ring would have stirred up the evil in Gollum again?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Repented for how long? Surely the realisation that Frodo was on a quest to destroy the Ring would have stirred up the evil in Gollum again?

Tolkien wrote, I think in that same letter cited by Tuor, that ultimately the Ring would have been too strong for Gollum, and the repentance would not have been permanent.

[Moonraker]

Would Gollum, being a previous Ring Bearer, be commanded to sail with the Company over the sea? Provided the old rascal could contain himself, tied up but treated with care?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Would Gollum, being a previous Ring Bearer, be commanded to sail with the Company over the sea? Provided the old rascal could contain himself, tied up but treated with care?

No. Frodo and Bilbo were not "commanded" themselves. It was a privilege granted because of their particular roles as Ring-bearers, and in recognition of each's love for the Elves. Gollum would not have gone, even if given the opportunity. His inability to touch the rope made in Lórien or eat lembas is an indication that the West wasn't for him.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The fact that the Ring was a heavy influence on Gollum's deeds was a factor in meriting forgiveness from Frodo and Sam, but it did not entitle him to retirement care. It should be remembered that Gollum's mean and malicious nature allowed the Ring to more easily affect him to such a degree.

Seconded.

It's been explained many times that the Ring enhances what is already there enroute to corruption. He was a rodentile muck-snipe who (...ahem...) commited murder the very moment he laid eyes on the Ring.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Seconded.

It's been explained many times that the Ring enhances what is already there enroute to corruption. He was a rodentile muck-snipe who (...ahem...) commited murder the very moment he laid eyes on the Ring.

But what would Gandalf have done with Gollum? I don't think the likes of Galadriel and Elrond would have cared too much for him, at best they might have been curious to visit him in jail in the Woodland realm of the Elves. Aragorn would have probably got involved in the final decision making process, being an old friend of Gollum's. Frodo & Bilbo would surely have forgiven him as they had first hand experience of the evil of the Ring.

Would the folks over the Great Sea not be curious to sea the creature behind all the tales that Frodo would have told them once the Company arrived on shore of the far green country, the Undying Lands?.

As for Gollum surviving, I could envisage a scene whereby he sees Frodo cast the Ring into the fire, shrieks out loud, and then faints. Sam and Frodo between them carry Gollum outside, then the Eagles come and take the three of them away. Gollum finally revives himself, now feeling terribly old and venerable, and no longer capable of being a physical danger to his captors. I can also conceive Gollum passing out permanently as he sees the Ring gone forever, maybe a stroke or heart attack due to the sheer shock and anger at losing what mean't so incredibly much to him. Certainly in old age this end would have been plausible, much like when a Pope died of shock in Rome after being informed that Jerusalem was lost by the Catholic soldiers to the Islamic Empire during the Crusades.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

But what would Gandalf have done with Gollum? I don't think the likes of Galadriel and Elrond would have cared too much for him, at best they might have been curious to visit him in jail in the Woodland realm of the Elves. Aragorn would have probably got involved in the final decision making process, being an old friend of Gollum's. Frodo & Bilbo would surely have forgiven him as they had first hand experience of the evil of the Ring.

Since when were any of the people you mention a "friend" of Gollum, least of all Aragorn?

'[Gollum] will never love me, I fear; for he bit me, and I was not gentle.

FOTR The Council of Elrond

So spoke Aragorn.

And Gollum wasn't anyone's responsibility. Yes, I think Frodo might have offered Gollum some help, if anyone did. But he would have been the only one, and it wouldn't have been out of any sort of obligation.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Would the folks over the Great Sea not be curious to sea the creature behind all the tales that Frodo would have told them once the Company arrived on shore of the far green country, the Undying Lands?.

No, no more than they would have wished to see Wormtongue, or the Witch-king. You couldn't just stick anyone on those boats. Bilbo and Frodo were very special cases.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

As for Gollum surviving, I could envisage a scene whereby he sees Frodo cast the Ring into the fire, shrieks out loud, and then faints. Sam and Frodo between them carry Gollum outside, then the Eagles come and take the three of them away. Gollum finally revives himself, now feeling terribly old and venerable, and no longer capable of being a physical danger to his captors. I can also conceive Gollum passing out permanently as he sees the Ring gone forever, maybe a stroke or heart attack due to the sheer shock and anger at losing what mean't so incredibly much to him. Certainly in old age this end would have been plausible, much like when a Pope died of shock in Rome after being informed that Jerusalem was lost by the Catholic soldiers to the Islamic Empire during the Crusades.

I personally think that if Gollum had witnessed Frodo throwing the Ring into the Fire, he would immediately have leaped in after it. Without it, he would have had no will to live.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Since when were any of the people you mention a "friend" of Gollum, least of all Aragorn?

No, no more than they would have wished to see Wormtongue, or the Witch-king. You couldn't just stick anyone on those boats. Bilbo and Frodo were very special case.

Regarding Aragorn and Gollum, of course I was not serious when I said they were old friends, but they had spent time together at least, unlike Elrond or Galadriel.

Wormtongue never wore the Ring, and neither did the Witchking. Also, as the fate of Middle Earth was so tightly linked with the company of Frodo, Sam AND Gollum, all three having been Ring bearers, it poses a question if Gollum did indeed warrant further examination by the hosts in the Undying Lands. They certainly would have been very keen to hear of, and even see and speak with Gollum in his venerable and harmless state more than almost anyone else coming to see them from Middle Earth.

Gollum was one of the very, very few unlucky creatures to have ever been brought before the seat of Sauron, and quizzed. As the Ring finder, Ring bearer, and indirectly the Ring destroyer, he may well have got the nod to be on the boat (in chains incase he tried something funny, still uncured and tormented by the shame of losing the Ring forever, hopefully not insane though).

I don't think he could have gone willingly though, if he still had the ability to think straight and reason. He would also have to be on suicide watch, as he had no reason to live anymore, and I can't see how anyone could force feed him survive if he chose to starve himself.

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Pity and patience would have ruled Gandalf's dealings with Gollum had he, somehow, survived the destruction of the Ring.

Not sure on that, say if Gollum decided to attack Gandalf randomly? Although the Wizard would seen the attack as no more than a slap in the face, he has to draw the line at some point on how much pity and mercy one can give.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Not sure on that, say if Gollum decided to attack Gandalf randomly?

Well, that wasn't part of the original question or situation which was not "if he survived and went on a murderous rampage against a wizard who had just saved his life" but simply "if Gollum survived the destruction of the Ring."

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

But what would Gandalf have done with Gollum? I don't think the likes of Galadriel and Elrond would have cared too much for him, at best they might have been curious to visit him in jail in the Woodland realm of the Elves. Aragorn would have probably got involved in the final decision making process, being an old friend of Gollum's. Frodo & Bilbo would surely have forgiven him as they had first hand experience of the evil of the Ring.

This isn't anything related to my reply to Inziladun, however. What Gandalf would have done with him is a separate question, entirely, and doesn't change the fact that Smeagol was a rodentile muck-snipe who killed his own kin the very moment he laid eyes on the Ring.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

This isn't anything related to my reply to Inziladun, however. What Gandalf would have done with him is a separate question, entirely, and doesn't change the fact that Smeagol was a rodentile muck-snipe who killed his own kin the very moment he laid eyes on the Ring.

Gandalf thought the evolution of Gollum was a sad story, one that he thought could have happened to good law abiding hobbits, so he probably would not agree entirely with your assessment that Gollum was like you say before he saw the Ring for the first time.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Gandalf thought the evolution of Gollum was a sad story, one that he thought could have happened to good law abiding hobbits, so he probably would not agree entirely with your assessment that Gollum was like you say before he saw the Ring for the first time.

Pity does not preclude holding one responsible for wrongdoing. Gandalf makes it clear to Frodo that because Bilbo's first act as Ring-bearer was to show mercy to Gollum, he escaped the Ring's corruption, and was even able to willfully give it up.

Gollum, on the other hand, began his possession of the Ring with murder, and then used it to spy on his relatives and learn their secrets.

Gandalf also felt sadness for the fall of Saruman, but we don't see him offering the latter a seat on the boat.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Gandalf thought the evolution of Gollum was a sad story, one that he thought could have happened to good law abiding hobbits, so he probably would not agree entirely with your assessment that Gollum was like you say before he saw the Ring for the first time.

Pure speculation about the thoughts of a fictional character. In any event, being a dirtbag doesn't prevent one from being in a sad story.