What if Gollum had lived?

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Seconded.

It's been explained many times that the Ring enhances what is already there enroute to corruption. He was a rodentile muck-snipe who (...ahem...) commited murder the very moment he laid eyes on the Ring.

But what would Gandalf have done with Gollum? I don't think the likes of Galadriel and Elrond would have cared too much for him, at best they might have been curious to visit him in jail in the Woodland realm of the Elves. Aragorn would have probably got involved in the final decision making process, being an old friend of Gollum's. Frodo & Bilbo would surely have forgiven him as they had first hand experience of the evil of the Ring.

Would the folks over the Great Sea not be curious to sea the creature behind all the tales that Frodo would have told them once the Company arrived on shore of the far green country, the Undying Lands?.

As for Gollum surviving, I could envisage a scene whereby he sees Frodo cast the Ring into the fire, shrieks out loud, and then faints. Sam and Frodo between them carry Gollum outside, then the Eagles come and take the three of them away. Gollum finally revives himself, now feeling terribly old and venerable, and no longer capable of being a physical danger to his captors. I can also conceive Gollum passing out permanently as he sees the Ring gone forever, maybe a stroke or heart attack due to the sheer shock and anger at losing what mean't so incredibly much to him. Certainly in old age this end would have been plausible, much like when a Pope died of shock in Rome after being informed that Jerusalem was lost by the Catholic soldiers to the Islamic Empire during the Crusades.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

But what would Gandalf have done with Gollum? I don't think the likes of Galadriel and Elrond would have cared too much for him, at best they might have been curious to visit him in jail in the Woodland realm of the Elves. Aragorn would have probably got involved in the final decision making process, being an old friend of Gollum's. Frodo & Bilbo would surely have forgiven him as they had first hand experience of the evil of the Ring.

Since when were any of the people you mention a "friend" of Gollum, least of all Aragorn?

'[Gollum] will never love me, I fear; for he bit me, and I was not gentle.

FOTR The Council of Elrond

So spoke Aragorn.

And Gollum wasn't anyone's responsibility. Yes, I think Frodo might have offered Gollum some help, if anyone did. But he would have been the only one, and it wouldn't have been out of any sort of obligation.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Would the folks over the Great Sea not be curious to sea the creature behind all the tales that Frodo would have told them once the Company arrived on shore of the far green country, the Undying Lands?.

No, no more than they would have wished to see Wormtongue, or the Witch-king. You couldn't just stick anyone on those boats. Bilbo and Frodo were very special cases.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

As for Gollum surviving, I could envisage a scene whereby he sees Frodo cast the Ring into the fire, shrieks out loud, and then faints. Sam and Frodo between them carry Gollum outside, then the Eagles come and take the three of them away. Gollum finally revives himself, now feeling terribly old and venerable, and no longer capable of being a physical danger to his captors. I can also conceive Gollum passing out permanently as he sees the Ring gone forever, maybe a stroke or heart attack due to the sheer shock and anger at losing what mean't so incredibly much to him. Certainly in old age this end would have been plausible, much like when a Pope died of shock in Rome after being informed that Jerusalem was lost by the Catholic soldiers to the Islamic Empire during the Crusades.

I personally think that if Gollum had witnessed Frodo throwing the Ring into the Fire, he would immediately have leaped in after it. Without it, he would have had no will to live.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Since when were any of the people you mention a "friend" of Gollum, least of all Aragorn?

No, no more than they would have wished to see Wormtongue, or the Witch-king. You couldn't just stick anyone on those boats. Bilbo and Frodo were very special case.

Regarding Aragorn and Gollum, of course I was not serious when I said they were old friends, but they had spent time together at least, unlike Elrond or Galadriel.

Wormtongue never wore the Ring, and neither did the Witchking. Also, as the fate of Middle Earth was so tightly linked with the company of Frodo, Sam AND Gollum, all three having been Ring bearers, it poses a question if Gollum did indeed warrant further examination by the hosts in the Undying Lands. They certainly would have been very keen to hear of, and even see and speak with Gollum in his venerable and harmless state more than almost anyone else coming to see them from Middle Earth.

Gollum was one of the very, very few unlucky creatures to have ever been brought before the seat of Sauron, and quizzed. As the Ring finder, Ring bearer, and indirectly the Ring destroyer, he may well have got the nod to be on the boat (in chains incase he tried something funny, still uncured and tormented by the shame of losing the Ring forever, hopefully not insane though).

I don't think he could have gone willingly though, if he still had the ability to think straight and reason. He would also have to be on suicide watch, as he had no reason to live anymore, and I can't see how anyone could force feed him survive if he chose to starve himself.

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Pity and patience would have ruled Gandalf's dealings with Gollum had he, somehow, survived the destruction of the Ring.

Not sure on that, say if Gollum decided to attack Gandalf randomly? Although the Wizard would seen the attack as no more than a slap in the face, he has to draw the line at some point on how much pity and mercy one can give.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Not sure on that, say if Gollum decided to attack Gandalf randomly?

Well, that wasn't part of the original question or situation which was not "if he survived and went on a murderous rampage against a wizard who had just saved his life" but simply "if Gollum survived the destruction of the Ring."

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Well, that wasn't part of the original question or situation which was not "if he survived and went on a murderous rampage against a wizard who had just saved his life" but simply "if Gollum survived the destruction of the Ring."

Yes. but realistically Gollum was a danger to anyone for a random attack surely, if he had any will and physical strength left.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

But what would Gandalf have done with Gollum? I don't think the likes of Galadriel and Elrond would have cared too much for him, at best they might have been curious to visit him in jail in the Woodland realm of the Elves. Aragorn would have probably got involved in the final decision making process, being an old friend of Gollum's. Frodo & Bilbo would surely have forgiven him as they had first hand experience of the evil of the Ring.

This isn't anything related to my reply to Inziladun, however. What Gandalf would have done with him is a separate question, entirely, and doesn't change the fact that Smeagol was a rodentile muck-snipe who killed his own kin the very moment he laid eyes on the Ring.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

This isn't anything related to my reply to Inziladun, however. What Gandalf would have done with him is a separate question, entirely, and doesn't change the fact that Smeagol was a rodentile muck-snipe who killed his own kin the very moment he laid eyes on the Ring.

Gandalf thought the evolution of Gollum was a sad story, one that he thought could have happened to good law abiding hobbits, so he probably would not agree entirely with your assessment that Gollum was like you say before he saw the Ring for the first time.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Gandalf thought the evolution of Gollum was a sad story, one that he thought could have happened to good law abiding hobbits, so he probably would not agree entirely with your assessment that Gollum was like you say before he saw the Ring for the first time.

Pity does not preclude holding one responsible for wrongdoing. Gandalf makes it clear to Frodo that because Bilbo's first act as Ring-bearer was to show mercy to Gollum, he escaped the Ring's corruption, and was even able to willfully give it up.

Gollum, on the other hand, began his possession of the Ring with murder, and then used it to spy on his relatives and learn their secrets.

Gandalf also felt sadness for the fall of Saruman, but we don't see him offering the latter a seat on the boat.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Gandalf also felt sadness for the fall of Saruman, but we don't see him offering the latter a seat on the boat.

Did Galadriel not offer the old fool forgiveness, which Saruman refused out of hand? In this context I always thought he would have been allowed on the ship to the Undying Lands, where he would then be summoned to a trial by the Valar, or other powers that be over the sea. But the Valar had banished Saruman from Valinor when his staff was broken by Gandalf, and I am not sure if Galadriel or Gandalf had enough authority to overturn the punishment to get him back to Valinor.

It is these folk that would also put Gollum on trial.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Gandalf thought the evolution of Gollum was a sad story, one that he thought could have happened to good law abiding hobbits, so he probably would not agree entirely with your assessment that Gollum was like you say before he saw the Ring for the first time.

Pure speculation about the thoughts of a fictional character. In any event, being a dirtbag doesn't prevent one from being in a sad story.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Pure speculation about the thoughts of a fictional character. In any event, being a dirtbag doesn't prevent one from being in a sad story.

Nope, not speculation. If Gandalf thought Gollum as evil regardless of what influence the Ring had on him, he would not have offered pity, he would have ordered jail at the very least, or death. Instead, he thought Gollum had a small chance of being cured from the evil of the Ring, and had him treated well by the Wood Elves. Tolkein even suggests that the archers of Gondor killing him in the dark would also be against Gandalf's wishes. The creature was not wholly evil or wicked in origin, and deserved a second chance, to his mind at least.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Nope, not speculation. If Gandalf thought Gollum as evil regardless of what influence the Ring had on him, he would not have offered pity, he would have ordered jail at the very least, or death. Instead, he thought Gollum had a small chance of being cured from the evil of the Ring, and had him treated well by the Wood Elves. Tolkein even suggests that the archers of Gondor killing him in the dark would also be against Gandalf's wishes. The creature was not wholly evil or wicked in origin, and deserved a second chance, to his mind at least.

It is speculation. You said:

so he probably would not agree entirely with your assessment that Gollum was like you say before he saw the Ring for the first time.

which is a guess about what someone (a fictional character, to boot) may or may not think when presented with a (another fictional) hypothetical.

Also, since I never said anything about executing Gollum, I'm not sure what your first quote in my reply here has to do with what we were talking about, or the price of tea in China.

[Inziladun]

Moonraker, this is a quote from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien that illustrates what I've been trying to say:

Gollum was pitiable, but he ended in persistent wickedness, and the fact that this worked good was no credit to him....The domination of the Ring was much too strong for the mean soul of Sméagol. But he would have never had to endure it if he had not become a mean sort of thief before it crossed his path.

# 181

Again, Gollum was deserving of pity, but had he lived he would only have earned freedom to go and live (or die) as he pleased. Frodo might have offered to care for him, but I think it certain any offer of help would have been refused.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

It is speculation. You said:



which is a guess about what someone (a fictional character, to boot) may or may not think when presented with a (another fictional) hypothetical.

Also, since I never said anything about executing Gollum, I'm not sure what your first quote in my reply here has to do with what we were talking about, or the price of tea in China.

Probability is not the same as speculation. Hitler died, probably by suicide, but I do not recall that as being presented as speculation by most historians. When the evidence for a case is compelling but not absolute, probability (likelihood) comes into the equation. Speculation is implying an outcome that may have no evidence whatsoever and is just a random guess.