Can atheists appreciate/understand Lord of the Ring?

[Tar-Verimuchli]

Thanks for the welcome, Faramir Jones. I was particularly referring to the part of the tale of Adanel which implies that men were originally intended to be immortal or very long lived as they only start dying when they all bow to Melkor and are judged by Iluvatar. As an atheist, I find the notion that all men are punished due to original sin/'sons bearing the sins of the fathers' inherently unjust and the notion that a omnipotent/omnipresent God would speak to everyone as an internal voice which non-believers refuse to hear an excuse for unreasoning faith. That said I think either Finrod or Andreth or both acknowledge that it may be a parable or not accurate due to successive retellings through generations. That would fit with Tolkien considering making 'unscientific' elements of the history of Middle Earth elements like the flat world into mannish myths.

[FerniesApple]

When the OP says 'atheist' does he/she mean someone who doesnt believe in modern organized religion like Christianity. or ALL religion? I suppose an atheist doesnt believe in God, but do they have spirituality of any kind? I am not sure about the definitions. Can one be a Druid and an atheist?
Anyway I think its perfectly possible to be an atheist and understand Tolkien, the moral codes Tolkien writes about are cultural as well as Catholic, its not mutually exclusive. If Tolkien was inspired by Viking/Nordic myths, they arent Christian are they, they are probably pagan.

[Tar-Verimuchli]

It's the rejection of God beliefs. An atheist may believe in some form of spirituality so many Buddhists as well as non-theistic Druids are theoretically atheists. However, self-identifying Atheists tend, in my experience, to be skeptics in that they require evidence before they believe in something so they would probably reject any form of spiritualism.

I agree about moral codes, very little of the values that are usually considered Christian are original to the bible. They have value because they have their origins in human culture and thought rather than in unsubstantiated claims of personal revelation.

I suspect the obvious response to the OP is that knowledge of Christian beliefs (and the various other theology/mythology Tolkien was influenced by) is important to understanding Tolkien but belief is not.

[FerniesApple]

Originally Posted by Tar-Verimuchli

It's the rejection of God beliefs. An atheist may believe in some form of spirituality so many Buddhists as well as non-theistic Druids are theoretically atheists. However, self-identifying Atheists tend, in my experience, to be skeptics in that they require evidence before they believe in something so they would probably reject any form of spiritualism.

I agree about moral codes, very little of the values that are usually considered Christian are original to the bible. They have value because they have their origins in human culture and thought rather than in unsubstantiated claims of personal revelation.

I suspect the obvious response to the OP is that knowledge of Christian beliefs (and the various other theology/mythology Tolkien was influenced by) is important to understanding Tolkien but belief is not.

hem.. I like your forum name. I say Tar-Verimuchii a lot back home. I am a very polite Hobbit.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Tar-Verimuchli

Thanks for the welcome, Faramir Jones. I was particularly referring to the part of the tale of Adanel which implies that men were originally intended to be immortal or very long lived as they only start dying when they all bow to Melkor and are judged by Iluvatar. As an atheist, I find the notion that all men are punished due to original sin/'sons bearing the sins of the fathers' inherently unjust and the notion that a omnipotent/omnipresent God would speak to everyone as an internal voice which non-believers refuse to hear an excuse for unreasoning faith. That said I think either Finrod or Andreth or both acknowledge that it may be a parable or not accurate due to successive retellings through generations. That would fit with Tolkien considering making 'unscientific' elements of the history of Middle Earth elements like the flat world into mannish myths.

Glad to have you here.

There are a lot of issues with the tale of Adanel, which have been discussed on the Downs, including on this thread:

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ghlight=Adanel

As you said, the teller and listener are aware that, even if the former is accurately telling the latter what she was herself told, the tale may have changed significantly over generations due to the successive retellings.

There's also the fact that the text we have was not intended for publication by Tolkien, being a rough draft, and not therefore an accurate expression of his views. This is quite apart from the fact that he wanted to overhaul the whole matter of the awakening of Man and what followed.

Looking at the issue of atheism in Tolkien's world, I recall that Sauron, after surrendering to Ar-Pharazôn, being brought captive to Númenor, then becoming that king's favourite, eventually argued that Eru didn't exist, being merely an invention of the Valar. This argument appears to have won over Pharazôn and most of his people, the Downfall being the end result.

[Tar-Verimuchli]

Thanks for the link Faramir Jones, it's interesting to know that Tolkien thought about having myths in his pseudo-mythology and the comparison of Elvish and Mannish memory and history is also interesting. I do remember HOME recounting his attempts to remove the flat world and light from trees elements and make them mannish myths.

On Ar Pharazon's beliefs, that sounds a bit like the Middle Earth version of saying that Hitler was an atheist. I'd say he was more of a satanist (Ar Pharazon, not Hitler, he was probably a deist). When atheists start giving blood sacrifices and worshiping Richard Dawkins then that comparison might be made.

Thanks for the compliment, FerniesApple, although I didn't really give it much thought.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Tar-Verimuchli

I do remember HOME recounting his attempts to remove the flat world and light from trees elements and make them mannish myths.

Tolkien did more than make attempts to make some of the unscientific parts of the Silmarillion into Mannish myths. In The Lord of the Rings Tolkien has Gimli recite a poem beginning with the lines (emphasis mine):

The world was young, the mountains green,
No stain yet on the Moon was seen,
No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone.

This conflicts with all Silmarillion accounts in which Durin and the other first Dwarves wake before the first rising of the Moon and Sun.

Gandalf later sings a short poem about the Ents (emphasis mine):

Ere iron was found or tree was hewn,
When young was mountain under moon;
Ere ring was made, or wrought was woe,
It walked the forests long ago.

Here the moon predates the first cutting of trees, presumably by Elves.

Also, in The Lord of the Rings, in Tolkien’s summary of early days in the Appendices, Tolkien makes no mention of the late creation of Moon and Sun from flower and fruit or of the tradition that the Earth had been flat before the drowning of Númenor.

In the The Hobbit in the chapter “Flies and Spiders”, Tolkien had originally written:

In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight before the raising of the Sun and Moon; and afterwards they wandered in the forests that grew beneath the sunrise.

In the revision of 1966 this was changed, removing all mention of a “raising of the Sun and Moon”:

In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon, but loved best the stars; and they wandered in the great forests that grew tall in lands that are now lost.

In the last three HoME volumes, except for text which is represented as part of the Annals or of the Silmarillion, in all mentions of the days before the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth, the Elves who appear as living in Middle-earth dwell under the Sun, where this is mentioned.

In Morgoth’s Ring (HoME 10), page 370, Tolkien makes clear his dissatisfaction with the tale of the late creation of the Moon and Sun from flower and fruit. Attempts to revise this did not work, and so Tolkien’s decision was to consider the Silmarillion to have been a legendary document in which Mannish tradition, sometimes false, has been mixed with Elvish tradition. This seems to have been Tolkien’s final and permanent opinion on the matter, perhaps first arrived at when he was considering publishing the Silmarillion for Milton Waldman.

On page 374 of Morgoth’s Ring (HoME), note 2, Tolkien writes:

The cosmogonic myths are Númenórean, blending Elven-lore with human myth and imagination. A note should say that the Wise of Númenor recorded that the making of the stars was not so, nor of Sun and Moon. For Sun and stars were all older than Arda.

Here Tolkien seems to imagine The Silmarillion eventually being published much as his son eventually did, but also including some notes, attributed to “the Wise of Númenor”, indicating that the account of The Silmarillion is not be taken as true on all points.

[Galin]

Attempts to revise this did not work, and so Tolkien’s decision was to consider the Silmarillion to have been a legendary document in which Mannish tradition, sometimes false, has been mixed with Elvish tradition. This seems to have been Tolkien’s final and permanent opinion on the matter...

I agree with this. And in addition to the verse examples in The Lord of the Rings, I think part of Treebeard's description of the Entwives at least suggests that the Sun existed very early on, although I believe there is a way to interpret his words in light of the 'Silmarillion myth' of the Sun and Moon. I also think (with admittedly scant references and no way to certainly prove it) that Tolkien 'authorized' The Drowning of Anadune as a late text, because as written, it fit nicely into his Elvish versus Mannish tradition, and even provides a different way to think about the term 'Straight Road'

Some bring up certain Bombadil references, but I'm not sure these are being read without being influenced by other flat world descriptions -- descriptions that do not appear in the books Tolkien actually published. Granted that argument is probably based more on the idea that, despite what Bombadil says, if the reader knows nothing about Tolkien's ideas outside of The Lord of the Rings, how likely is it for a first time reader to certainly conclude, from Bombadil's remarks, that the world the Hobbits live on was once flat?

There is also the argument that Bombadil was just echoing Mannish Myth, although I would admit that's a bit of an 'easy out' to say: well Bombadil really knew the 'truth' but he just didn't report it here to his Hobbit audience... and on a similar note some have argued that the verses in The Lord of the Rings are poetic works of art, and thus need not reflect the 'truth' of the Silmarillion matter.

I think, but haven't gathered up 'all' instances lately to really look at them again, but I think the Appendices (and possibly the story proper of The Lord of the Rings) include references to the Twilight, or a Twilight or time of Twilight, or similar... and so I can't recall if each is easily explainable in the context of the pre-existing Sun notion. Although again, if pressed Tolkien might have explained that a given description could be stamped with: that's part of the Mannish ideas or tales getting woven in, no matter what was meant originally.

I believe also that the 'Change of the World' need not refer to Eru altering the actual shape of the World, which phrase does appear in the Appendices if I recall correctly.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Galin

I believe also that the 'Change of the World' need not refer to Eru altering the actual shape of the World, which phrase does appear in the Appendices if I recall correctly.

In Appendix A the actual wording is (emphasis mine):

But when Ar-Pharazôn set foot upon the shores of Aman the Blessed, the Valar laid down their Guardianship and called upon the One, and the world was changed. Númenor was thrown down and swallowed by the Sea, and the Undying Lands were were removed from the circles of the world.

I think the world was changed is simply a summary of what is immediately said following: Númenor is thrown down and swallowed and the Undying Lands are removed from the circles of the world. There is no specific mention then or at any point in The Lord of the Rings that the Earth was formerly flat.

I agree that many readers try to interpret The Lord of the Rings according to The Silmarillion, but such interpretation disagrees with what Tolkien actually writes, when not writing The Silmarillion proper or The Book of Lost Tales or the material printed on The Lays of Beleriand. Tolkien makes it quite clear that he plans to cut out non-scientific material from his legendarium, except as part of this Silmarillion which he explains as being polluted by Mannish legend.

[Tar-Jêx]

To address the original topic, I think it's quite clear that one does not need to be religious to appreciate all of the symbolism and references that Tolkien has included.
One just needs to understand the religion being referenced and symbolized. Being of that religion shouldn't really mean anything if you understand what is going on.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by jallanite

In Appendix A the actual wording is (emphasis mine

Without checking what I probably should have said is even if the specific phrase I mentioned is somewhere published by Tolkien, the phrase itself need not refer to a flat world becoming round at the fall of Numenor.

Anyway I not only agree with your interpretation of the actual passage, but if Akallabêth is meant to be a 'mixed' tradition (Elvish and Mannish), I think it too can surely contain the idea of a world made round, at the time of the fall of Numenor, according to certain Men, in distinction to the World being originally made round. And if The Drowning of Anadune had been published by Tolkien as a Mannish version, as I believe JRRT might have done, then the seeming 'truth' of certain statements in Akallabêth could arguably be read in a different light.

And not that you asked or anyone cares, but the passage I was thinking about regarding Bombadil is where he refers to the bent seas. As for twilight: in Appendix A Twilight appears to refer to a place, West Over Sea (Tale of Aragorn and Arwen) but there are at least two references to a seeming time period: a time of 'twilight' (not Twilight)... one with respect to trolls, the other connected to a reference to Thingol in the language section. I think both are in Appendix F.

I don't know how these might be explained if the pre-existing sun is the truth, if they need explaining in some way other than mannish ideas seeping in that is, but in my opinion they do seem to suggest the time before the Sun arose -- again at least when thinking of, or being influenced by, the Silmarillion tale.