Can atheists appreciate/understand Lord of the Ring?

[Tar-Verimuchli]

Thanks for the link Faramir Jones, it's interesting to know that Tolkien thought about having myths in his pseudo-mythology and the comparison of Elvish and Mannish memory and history is also interesting. I do remember HOME recounting his attempts to remove the flat world and light from trees elements and make them mannish myths.

On Ar Pharazon's beliefs, that sounds a bit like the Middle Earth version of saying that Hitler was an atheist. I'd say he was more of a satanist (Ar Pharazon, not Hitler, he was probably a deist). When atheists start giving blood sacrifices and worshiping Richard Dawkins then that comparison might be made.

Thanks for the compliment, FerniesApple, although I didn't really give it much thought.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Tar-Verimuchli

I do remember HOME recounting his attempts to remove the flat world and light from trees elements and make them mannish myths.

Tolkien did more than make attempts to make some of the unscientific parts of the Silmarillion into Mannish myths. In The Lord of the Rings Tolkien has Gimli recite a poem beginning with the lines (emphasis mine):

The world was young, the mountains green,
No stain yet on the Moon was seen,
No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone.

This conflicts with all Silmarillion accounts in which Durin and the other first Dwarves wake before the first rising of the Moon and Sun.

Gandalf later sings a short poem about the Ents (emphasis mine):

Ere iron was found or tree was hewn,
When young was mountain under moon;
Ere ring was made, or wrought was woe,
It walked the forests long ago.

Here the moon predates the first cutting of trees, presumably by Elves.

Also, in The Lord of the Rings, in Tolkien’s summary of early days in the Appendices, Tolkien makes no mention of the late creation of Moon and Sun from flower and fruit or of the tradition that the Earth had been flat before the drowning of Númenor.

In the The Hobbit in the chapter “Flies and Spiders”, Tolkien had originally written:

In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight before the raising of the Sun and Moon; and afterwards they wandered in the forests that grew beneath the sunrise.

In the revision of 1966 this was changed, removing all mention of a “raising of the Sun and Moon”:

In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon, but loved best the stars; and they wandered in the great forests that grew tall in lands that are now lost.

In the last three HoME volumes, except for text which is represented as part of the Annals or of the Silmarillion, in all mentions of the days before the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth, the Elves who appear as living in Middle-earth dwell under the Sun, where this is mentioned.

In Morgoth’s Ring (HoME 10), page 370, Tolkien makes clear his dissatisfaction with the tale of the late creation of the Moon and Sun from flower and fruit. Attempts to revise this did not work, and so Tolkien’s decision was to consider the Silmarillion to have been a legendary document in which Mannish tradition, sometimes false, has been mixed with Elvish tradition. This seems to have been Tolkien’s final and permanent opinion on the matter, perhaps first arrived at when he was considering publishing the Silmarillion for Milton Waldman.

On page 374 of Morgoth’s Ring (HoME), note 2, Tolkien writes:

The cosmogonic myths are Númenórean, blending Elven-lore with human myth and imagination. A note should say that the Wise of Númenor recorded that the making of the stars was not so, nor of Sun and Moon. For Sun and stars were all older than Arda.

Here Tolkien seems to imagine The Silmarillion eventually being published much as his son eventually did, but also including some notes, attributed to “the Wise of Númenor”, indicating that the account of The Silmarillion is not be taken as true on all points.

[Galin]

Attempts to revise this did not work, and so Tolkien’s decision was to consider the Silmarillion to have been a legendary document in which Mannish tradition, sometimes false, has been mixed with Elvish tradition. This seems to have been Tolkien’s final and permanent opinion on the matter...

I agree with this. And in addition to the verse examples in The Lord of the Rings, I think part of Treebeard's description of the Entwives at least suggests that the Sun existed very early on, although I believe there is a way to interpret his words in light of the 'Silmarillion myth' of the Sun and Moon. I also think (with admittedly scant references and no way to certainly prove it) that Tolkien 'authorized' The Drowning of Anadune as a late text, because as written, it fit nicely into his Elvish versus Mannish tradition, and even provides a different way to think about the term 'Straight Road'

Some bring up certain Bombadil references, but I'm not sure these are being read without being influenced by other flat world descriptions -- descriptions that do not appear in the books Tolkien actually published. Granted that argument is probably based more on the idea that, despite what Bombadil says, if the reader knows nothing about Tolkien's ideas outside of The Lord of the Rings, how likely is it for a first time reader to certainly conclude, from Bombadil's remarks, that the world the Hobbits live on was once flat?

There is also the argument that Bombadil was just echoing Mannish Myth, although I would admit that's a bit of an 'easy out' to say: well Bombadil really knew the 'truth' but he just didn't report it here to his Hobbit audience... and on a similar note some have argued that the verses in The Lord of the Rings are poetic works of art, and thus need not reflect the 'truth' of the Silmarillion matter.

I think, but haven't gathered up 'all' instances lately to really look at them again, but I think the Appendices (and possibly the story proper of The Lord of the Rings) include references to the Twilight, or a Twilight or time of Twilight, or similar... and so I can't recall if each is easily explainable in the context of the pre-existing Sun notion. Although again, if pressed Tolkien might have explained that a given description could be stamped with: that's part of the Mannish ideas or tales getting woven in, no matter what was meant originally.

I believe also that the 'Change of the World' need not refer to Eru altering the actual shape of the World, which phrase does appear in the Appendices if I recall correctly.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Galin

I believe also that the 'Change of the World' need not refer to Eru altering the actual shape of the World, which phrase does appear in the Appendices if I recall correctly.

In Appendix A the actual wording is (emphasis mine):

But when Ar-Pharazôn set foot upon the shores of Aman the Blessed, the Valar laid down their Guardianship and called upon the One, and the world was changed. Númenor was thrown down and swallowed by the Sea, and the Undying Lands were were removed from the circles of the world.

I think the world was changed is simply a summary of what is immediately said following: Númenor is thrown down and swallowed and the Undying Lands are removed from the circles of the world. There is no specific mention then or at any point in The Lord of the Rings that the Earth was formerly flat.

I agree that many readers try to interpret The Lord of the Rings according to The Silmarillion, but such interpretation disagrees with what Tolkien actually writes, when not writing The Silmarillion proper or The Book of Lost Tales or the material printed on The Lays of Beleriand. Tolkien makes it quite clear that he plans to cut out non-scientific material from his legendarium, except as part of this Silmarillion which he explains as being polluted by Mannish legend.

[Tar-Jêx]

To address the original topic, I think it's quite clear that one does not need to be religious to appreciate all of the symbolism and references that Tolkien has included.
One just needs to understand the religion being referenced and symbolized. Being of that religion shouldn't really mean anything if you understand what is going on.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by jallanite

In Appendix A the actual wording is (emphasis mine

Without checking what I probably should have said is even if the specific phrase I mentioned is somewhere published by Tolkien, the phrase itself need not refer to a flat world becoming round at the fall of Numenor.

Anyway I not only agree with your interpretation of the actual passage, but if Akallabêth is meant to be a 'mixed' tradition (Elvish and Mannish), I think it too can surely contain the idea of a world made round, at the time of the fall of Numenor, according to certain Men, in distinction to the World being originally made round. And if The Drowning of Anadune had been published by Tolkien as a Mannish version, as I believe JRRT might have done, then the seeming 'truth' of certain statements in Akallabêth could arguably be read in a different light.

And not that you asked or anyone cares, but the passage I was thinking about regarding Bombadil is where he refers to the bent seas. As for twilight: in Appendix A Twilight appears to refer to a place, West Over Sea (Tale of Aragorn and Arwen) but there are at least two references to a seeming time period: a time of 'twilight' (not Twilight)... one with respect to trolls, the other connected to a reference to Thingol in the language section. I think both are in Appendix F.

I don't know how these might be explained if the pre-existing sun is the truth, if they need explaining in some way other than mannish ideas seeping in that is, but in my opinion they do seem to suggest the time before the Sun arose -- again at least when thinking of, or being influenced by, the Silmarillion tale.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Galin

And not that you asked or anyone cares, but the passage I was thinking about regarding Bombadil is where he refers to the bent seas.

In Fellowship, page 131, Tolkien writes:

When they [the hobbits] caught his [Tom’s] words again they found that he had now wandered into strange regions beyond their memory and beyond their waking thought, into times when the world was wider, and the seas flowed straight to the western Shore; and still on and back Tom went singing out into the ancient starlight, when only the Elf-sires were awake.

That the Undying Lands were once on Earth is part of Tolkien’s thought in all his writing. The removal of the Undying Lands from the circles of the world at the time of the drowning of Númenor is being referred to here. Tom is telling of days before the Undying Lands were removed.

In Morgoth’s Ring (HoME 10), page 377-78, Tolkien writes of the waking of the Elf-sires:

From the far North (where [they are] dense) to the middle (Endor) great clouds brood. Moon and stars are invisible. Day is only a dim twilight at full. Only light [is] in Valinor.

Varda arises in her might and Manwë of the Winds and strive with the Cloud of Unseeing. But as fast as it is rent Melkor closes the veil again – at least over Middle-earth. Then came the great Wind of Manwë, and the veil was rent. The stars shine out clear even in the North (Valakirka) and after the long dark seem terribly bright.

It is in the dark just before that the Elves awake. The first thing that they see in the dark is the stars. But Melkor brings up glooms out of the East, and the stars fade away west. Hence they think from the beginning of light and beauty in the West.

In The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), beginning on page 420, Tolkien relates an Elvish legend of the waking of the first Elves, in which several groups of Elves awake on different days, each beneath the stars of early twilight before the dawn.

In Fellowship, page 131, Tolkien has Tom claim:

When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent.

This refers to later accounts in which after the drowning of Númenor and the removal of the Undying Lands from Earth, Elves could still sail there following the old track whereas the vessels of Men normally followed the bent seas and were therefore bound to Earth, no matter how far they sailed.

At least this is how I interpret these references.

As for twilight: in Appendix A Twilight appears to refer to a place, West Over Sea (Tale of Aragorn and Arwen) but there are at least two references to a seeming time period: a time of 'twilight' (not Twilight)... one with respect to trolls, the other connected to a reference to Thingol in the language section. I think both are in Appendix F.

The reference to Thingol on page 1128 of Return reads:

There Thingol Greycloak of Doriath was their king, and in the long twilight their tongue had changed with the changefulness of mortal lands and had become far estranged from the speech of the Eldar beyond the Sea.

Twilight literally refers to the light in the sky just preceding full sunrise or just following full sunset. Metaphorically it may refer to light that is similar in some way. The reign of Thingol before the raising of the Moon and Sun in the Silmarillion is literally a reign under the darkness of night, not a reign illuminated by literal twilight. As already mentioned, in The Hobbit, Tolkien had originally written, “the Wood Elves lingered in the twilight before the raising of the Sun and Moon” but in the edition published in 1966 changed the text to, “the Wood Elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon”. I think this later text represents the metaphor intended by Tolkien here, that Thingol reigns under what is a long twilight in comparison to the Undying Lands beyond the Sea illuminated by the Two Trees.

Tolkien’s reference to Trolls on page 1132 of Return reads:

In their beginnings far back in the twilight of the Elder Days, these were creatures of dull and lumpish nature and had no more language than beasts.

Here I think Tolkien is metaphorically referring to the years of cloudy darkness brought on by Morgoth.

I admit that neither of these meanings can be proved from the texts.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by jallanite

In Fellowship, page 131, Tolkien writes:

When they [the hobbits] caught his [Tom’s] words again they found that he had now wandered into strange regions beyond their memory and beyond their waking thought, into times when the world was wider, and the seas flowed straight to the western Shore; and still on and back Tom went singing out into the ancient starlight, when only the Elf-sires were awake.

That the Undying Lands were once on Earth is part of Tolkien’s thought in all his writing. The removal of the Undying Lands from the circles of the world at the time of the drowning of Númenor is being referred to here. Tom is telling of days before the Undying Lands were removed.

I agree. I didn't refer to this section as I think it's more easily explained than the reference to the seas being bent.

In Morgoth’s Ring (HoME 10), page 377-78, Tolkien writes of the waking of the Elf-sires:[INDENT]From the far North (where [they are] dense) to the middle (Endor) great clouds brood. Moon and stars are invisible. Day is only a dim twilight at full. Only light [is] in Valinor. [... cut for brevity...] In The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), beginning on page 420, Tolkien relates an Elvish legend of the waking of the first Elves, in which several groups of Elves awake on different days, each beneath the stars of early twilight before the dawn.

Yes I think the legend of the Awakening of the Quendi, a very Elvish legend, could be a nice way to represent the matter of the Sun in comparison to the mixed (Elvish and Manish) Silmarillion. Possibly also the legend of the death of Ambarussa for example, though not that (I've any proof that) Tolkien was prepared to employ this as a separate Elvish account distinct from Quenta Silmarillion (in any case).

In Fellowship, page 131, Tolkien has Tom claim:

When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent.

This refers to later accounts in which after the drowning of Númenor and the removal of the Undying Lands from Earth, Elves could still sail there following the old track whereas the vessels of Men normally followed the bent seas and were therefore bound to Earth, no matter how far they sailed.

At least this is how I interpret these references.

That works. My attempt was that the seas were (or could be said to be) 'bent' into the great chasm when Numenor fell and Aman was taken away.

The reference to Thingol on page 1128 of Return reads:

There Thingol Greycloak of Doriath was their king, and in the long twilight their tongue had changed with the changefulness of mortal lands and had become far estranged from the speech of the Eldar beyond the Sea.

Twilight literally refers to the light in the sky just preceding full sunrise or just following full sunset. Metaphorically it may refer to light that is similar in some way. The reign of Thingol before the raising of the Moon and Sun in the Silmarillion is literally a reign under the darkness of night, not a reign illuminated by literal twilight. As already mentioned, in The Hobbit, Tolkien had originally written, “the Wood Elves lingered in the twilight before the raising of the Sun and Moon” but in the edition published in 1966 changed the text to, “the Wood Elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon”. I think this later text represents the metaphor intended by Tolkien here, that Thingol reigns under what is a long twilight in comparison to the Undying Lands beyond the Sea illuminated by the Two Trees.

Just to state it, and this being obviously subjective: I find 'twilight' as in 'the period under the stars' quite beautiful and poetic, and this reference from The Hobbit (before revised) is of course echoed in the Silmarillion traditions, or at least the Annals of Aman, in the early 1950s phase.

My reaction to this revision in The Hobbit centered on the special emphasis, (noted in the Appendix on Calendars in The Return of the King) that the Eldar placed on the two twilights, morning and evening (the question of these Silvan Elves being Eldar or not aside here. And of course they are Elves, and Eldar in the sense of 'Star-folk' in any event). And if taken to mean a period of time, to me it would stretch from the creation of the Sun to our day.

But you make a good point here, as, if the Dome of Varda is in place this could be a period of time in contrast to a time before the death of the Trees, after which the Dome would be removed and the two places would be lit in the same way.

If I read you correctly here, that is.

Tolkien’s reference to Trolls on page 1132 of Return reads:

In their beginnings far back in the twilight of the Elder Days, these were creatures of dull and lumpish nature and had no more language than beasts.

Here I think Tolkien is metaphorically referring to the years of cloudy darkness brought on by Morgoth.

I admit that neither of these meanings can be proved from the texts.

This twilight I don't find very beautiful given that it is dim day caused by smoke and clouds, but on the other hand it arguaby connects well to Trolls.

Thanks for the considered response!