Did Denethor see Frodo captured in the Palantir?

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

sorry I cant agree. Denethor lost his wits trying to fence with Sauron, he was mortal, even Aragorn wouldnt risk it.

I can't agree with this. Denethor lost his wits when he thought Faramir was dealt a mortal blow.

According to Aragorn himself, he did use the Stone and revealed himself to Sauron before they took the Paths of the Dead.

Originally Posted by RotK; The Passing of the Grey Company

I am the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it, or so I judged. The right cannot be doubted. The strength was enough - barely. It was a bitter struggle, and the weariness is slow to pass. I spoke no word to him, and in the end I wrenched the Stone to my own will. That alone he will find hard to endure. And he beheld me. <...> when I mastered the Stone, I learned many things. A grave peril I saw coming unlooked for upon Gondor from the South that will draw off great strength from the defense of Minas Tirith.

The Stones were used for communication in the realm of the Dúnedain, but Sauron "used a Stone for the transference of his superior will, dominating the weaker surveyor and forcing him to reveal hidden thought and to submit to commands." [The Palantíri, Note #5]

Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales; The Palantíri

the Stones were originally "innocent," serving no evil purpose. It was Sauron who made them sinister, and instruments of domination and deceit.

Denethor also had a right to the Stone as warden of the Kings. However, Gandalf had his doubts about Denethor, that perhaps he too, like Saruman, had surrendered to Sauron. Take note of what is said concerning those who had a right to use the Stones.

Originally Posted by The Palantíri

In the case of Denethor, the Steward was strengthened, even against Sauron himself, by the fact the Stones were far more amenable to legitimate users: most of all to true "Heirs of Elendil" (as Aragorn), but also to one with inherited authority (as Denethor), as compared to Saruman, or Sauron.

<...>

Denethor was a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son. <...> the Arnor stone was his by right, and nothing but expediency was against his use of it in his grave anxieties. He must have guessed that the Ithil-stone was in evil hands, and risked contact with it, trusting his strength. His trust was not entirely unjustified. Sauron failed to dominate him and could only influence him by deceits.

He never dominated Denethor and therefore could not force him to reveal his thought to him. It is said that Sauron may have tried to mess with Denethor but he was ever able to wrench the Stone from Sauron. So I would say that the only information Sauron got was not from Denethor, but from scrying the Stone and looking upon the land of Gondor, as the Dúnedain used to do when they watched their borders with the Stones and kept and eye on their enemies.

[FerniesApple]

Fair enough, but Denethor was pretty much teetering on the edge by the time Faramir was injured. So why the sudden collapse of his sanity into madness? Only a person who has been worn down by great peril snaps like that. Before Fara mirs injury Denethor had been in full control of his mind and was defending the city with some ability, he wasnt giving up to despair like film Denethor, so my question is would the apparent 'death' of Faramir, even though it must have been possible to ascertain whether he had a pulse or not, been enough to make Denethor go mad? My view is the long struggles with the palantir corrupted his mind, letting Saurons messages of despair fill him with dread. Denethor was a mortal man and not Young, he was still strong but not as strong as Aragorn mentally. After all Aragorn had experience of toughing it out in the wilds, good battle training, Denethor was used to an easy life in an Ivory tower.

[Belegorn]

When Gandalf and Pippin arrive at Minas Tirith Pippen takes note of Denethor during his battle of wills with Gandalf.

Originally Posted by RotK; Minas Tirith

Pippen saw a likeness between the two, and he felt the strain between them, <...> Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older.

He sees a vibrant man of power. However, when Faramir is wounded this changes. Also Faramir does have a Morgul-wound, so feeling for a pulse would not matter. He'd been sick for a while, poisoned. They all knew what would happen.

Originally Posted by RotK; The Siege of Gondor

Faramir lay upon his bed in the chamber of the White Tower, wandering in a desperate fever;

<...>

as he [Pippin] watched, it seemed to him that Denethor grew old before his eyes, as if something had snapped in his proud will, and his stern mind was overthrown. Grief maybe had wrought it, and remorse. He saw tears on that once tearless face, more unbearable than wrath.

<...>

"I sent my son forth, unthanked, unblessed, out into needless peril, and here he lies with poison in his veins. Nay, nay, whatever may now betide in war, my line too is ending, even the House of the Stewards has failed. Mean folk shall rule the last remnants of the Kings of Men, lurking in the hills until all are hounded out."

He's in despair about the fate of his son, "He might speak before the end. But that is near." and also about about the fate of the Dúnedain. But it seems clear to me that what has broken him is Faramir's injury and oncoming death, as he sat by his side and could care less about what was happening outside his halls.

However, Gandalf makes the claim that "the vision of the great might of Mordor that was shown to him fed the despair of his heart until it overthrew his mind." [RotK; The Pyre of Denethor]

I would not say Denethor had it easy. Gondor was ever at war and I would assume that Denethor was a captain in the armies of Gondor under his father, just as his sons were under him. The Stewards, it seems, as with the kings, were always part of the army.

You have compared Denethor to Aragorn before and it is said that they were as like as to the nearest of kin. So physically and mentally it would appear they were very much alike and not quite so different [Appendix A; The Stewards]. They were even about the same age.

[FerniesApple]

I think Faramir was like Aragorn, but Boromir was more like Denethor, I seem to remember thinking that Denethor resented Faramir this likeness to the kings of Gondor. Denethor was a powerful and kingly man, but it was mostly pride imo.

[Belegorn]

He resented Faramir because he was like Aragorn. Bormoir was not like Denethor. Denethor was actually more like Faramir, he just liked Boromir. Faramir and Denethor acted more like Númenóreans. They were warriors and loremasters. Funny enough he berated Faramir for this apparently not realizing that he was seeing himself in Faramir, but he saw Aragorn, his opponent in Faramir. Again, keep in mind, "he was as like to Thorongil [Aragorn] as to one of nearest kin" [Appendix A; The Stewards] All three of these High Men were similar, but Faramir reminded him of Aragorn because of his High Númenórean bearing and friendship with Gandalf, like Aragorn. Finally:

Originally Posted by RotK; Minas Tirit

He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best.

Boromir was more like the Rohirrim, who loved battle.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

Denethor was a powerful and kingly man, but it was mostly pride imo.

Denethor was a High Man, a Dúnadan. He was a greater man than any other king unless it be a King of the Dúnedain.

Originally Posted by RotK, Minas Tirith

Denethor is of another sort, proud and subtle, a man of far greater lineage and power [than Théoden], though he is not called a king.

If you were to consider Denethor as compared to other men just recall the comparisons made of the Dúnedain to other men. The warriors of Rohan were like children next to them, and Éowyn saw that none of their warriors could compete with them. This would hold true of Denethor as well, being a Dúnadan.

[FerniesApple]

Denethor may be all that is noble, but he did resent Faramir and Aragorn, and thats pride, pride that he shared with Boromir, so in that way Denethor was in character more like Boromir than Faramir.

[cellurdur]

I think it is implied he did. What he says to Pipin certainly gives me the impression he has seen as much.

'Comfort me not with wizards!' said Denethor. 'The fool's hope has failed. The enemy has found it, and now his power waxes; he sees our very thoughts and all we do is ruinous.'

[Belegorn]

I do not doubt Denethor had similarities with both of his sons.

Originally Posted by FotR; Appendix A; The Stewards

Boromir, five years the elder, beloved by his father, was like him in face and pride, but in little else. Rather he was a man after the sort of King Eärnur of old. taking no wife and delighting chiefly in arms; fearless and strong, but caring little for lore, save the tales of old battles. Faramir the younger was like him in looks but otherwise in mind. He read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him sooner to pity than to scorn. He was gentle in bearing, and a lover of lore and music, and therefore by many in those days his courage was judge less than his brother's. But it was not so, except that he did not seek glory in danger without a purpose. He welcomed Gandalf at such times as he came to the City, and he learned what he could from his wisdom; and in this as in many other matters he displeased his father.

Here there is a picture drawn of Denethor and his sons. They are both like and not like him, as one would expect.

Originally Posted by RotK; Minas Tirith

He loved him [Boromir] greatly: too much perhaps; and the more so because they were unlike.

The last quote shows that Gandalf thought they were not alike, Denethor and Boromir. He figured that he loved Boromir so much because he was not like himself. His resentment of Aragorn is another matter, due perhaps to his guess that Aragorn, or Thorongil as he also knew him, was of the royal line of the North.

Originally Posted by Appendix A; The Stewards

Denethor <...> had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him.

However, even with Aragorn their thoughts were basically similar and he reminded Pippin of Aragorn, rather than of Boromir.

Originally Posted by The Stewards"

in one matter only were their counsels to the Steward at variance: Thorongil often warned Ecthelion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard, but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf.; and after the days of Ecthelion there was less welcome for the Grey Pilgrim in Minas Tirith.

Also note that Boromir had accepted Aragorn, Denethor did not. Faramir too had accepted Aragorn.