Did Denethor see Frodo captured in the Palantir?

[FerniesApple]

I think Faramir was like Aragorn, but Boromir was more like Denethor, I seem to remember thinking that Denethor resented Faramir this likeness to the kings of Gondor. Denethor was a powerful and kingly man, but it was mostly pride imo.

[Belegorn]

He resented Faramir because he was like Aragorn. Bormoir was not like Denethor. Denethor was actually more like Faramir, he just liked Boromir. Faramir and Denethor acted more like Númenóreans. They were warriors and loremasters. Funny enough he berated Faramir for this apparently not realizing that he was seeing himself in Faramir, but he saw Aragorn, his opponent in Faramir. Again, keep in mind, "he was as like to Thorongil [Aragorn] as to one of nearest kin" [Appendix A; The Stewards] All three of these High Men were similar, but Faramir reminded him of Aragorn because of his High Númenórean bearing and friendship with Gandalf, like Aragorn. Finally:

Originally Posted by RotK; Minas Tirit

He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best.

Boromir was more like the Rohirrim, who loved battle.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

Denethor was a powerful and kingly man, but it was mostly pride imo.

Denethor was a High Man, a Dúnadan. He was a greater man than any other king unless it be a King of the Dúnedain.

Originally Posted by RotK, Minas Tirith

Denethor is of another sort, proud and subtle, a man of far greater lineage and power [than Théoden], though he is not called a king.

If you were to consider Denethor as compared to other men just recall the comparisons made of the Dúnedain to other men. The warriors of Rohan were like children next to them, and Éowyn saw that none of their warriors could compete with them. This would hold true of Denethor as well, being a Dúnadan.

[FerniesApple]

Denethor may be all that is noble, but he did resent Faramir and Aragorn, and thats pride, pride that he shared with Boromir, so in that way Denethor was in character more like Boromir than Faramir.

[cellurdur]

I think it is implied he did. What he says to Pipin certainly gives me the impression he has seen as much.

'Comfort me not with wizards!' said Denethor. 'The fool's hope has failed. The enemy has found it, and now his power waxes; he sees our very thoughts and all we do is ruinous.'

[Belegorn]

I do not doubt Denethor had similarities with both of his sons.

Originally Posted by FotR; Appendix A; The Stewards

Boromir, five years the elder, beloved by his father, was like him in face and pride, but in little else. Rather he was a man after the sort of King Eärnur of old. taking no wife and delighting chiefly in arms; fearless and strong, but caring little for lore, save the tales of old battles. Faramir the younger was like him in looks but otherwise in mind. He read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him sooner to pity than to scorn. He was gentle in bearing, and a lover of lore and music, and therefore by many in those days his courage was judge less than his brother's. But it was not so, except that he did not seek glory in danger without a purpose. He welcomed Gandalf at such times as he came to the City, and he learned what he could from his wisdom; and in this as in many other matters he displeased his father.

Here there is a picture drawn of Denethor and his sons. They are both like and not like him, as one would expect.

Originally Posted by RotK; Minas Tirith

He loved him [Boromir] greatly: too much perhaps; and the more so because they were unlike.

The last quote shows that Gandalf thought they were not alike, Denethor and Boromir. He figured that he loved Boromir so much because he was not like himself. His resentment of Aragorn is another matter, due perhaps to his guess that Aragorn, or Thorongil as he also knew him, was of the royal line of the North.

Originally Posted by Appendix A; The Stewards

Denethor <...> had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him.

However, even with Aragorn their thoughts were basically similar and he reminded Pippin of Aragorn, rather than of Boromir.

Originally Posted by The Stewards"

in one matter only were their counsels to the Steward at variance: Thorongil often warned Ecthelion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard, but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf.; and after the days of Ecthelion there was less welcome for the Grey Pilgrim in Minas Tirith.

Also note that Boromir had accepted Aragorn, Denethor did not. Faramir too had accepted Aragorn.

[Alfirin]

All of this bring up an interesting field for speculation. When Denethor views the Black Ships sailing up the Anduin in the Palantir, how much exactly did he see, or more to the point, if Sauron is controlling what the Palantir shows him by this point what exactly is he showing Denethor? Objectively, it is reasonable to assume Denethor saw exactly what he claimed to have seen, black ships sailing up the Anduin, and interpreted it (perfectly logically, given the circumstances) as meaning the Corsairs were sailing up from Umbar to Join the battle on Sauron's side. In and of itself this would be perfectly good reason to break down (especially since it would mean Lebennen would be enemy controlled by now, and Minas Tirith now more or less wholly surrounded with no way to flee left. But , given the kind of man Denethor is, I wonder if at this point Sauron, despairing with breaking him for good by displays of Mordor's might might, and havin some idea of how Denthor thinks. have tried a new tactic, one that actually worked, namely playing into Denthor's nature by letting (or making) him see what is ACTUALLY happening i.e letting him seen Aragorn routing the Corsairs and setting sail. By doing this he would basically be showing Denthor that, even if he could repulse Mordor's army, he would STILL "lose everything"; the king was coming back. I Denethor saw the Dead Men obeying Aragorn/Thorongil's orders, he would no longer have any doubts that Aragorn was the King, and any hopes he might of had of disputing the claim post battle would have evaporated. Objectively, Sauron probably knows that in the long run, while Denthor's death would weaken Minas Tirith, it alone could not make the city simply fall; that there would be others to take over command, that the Men of Rohan would be arriving at Pellenor soon, and (eventually) Aragorn himself was showing up and what that would likely mean. On the other hand, if he could play into Denthors fears so much as to focus on eliminating Aragorn as soon as he arrived or even go so far as to subtly insinuate himself deep enough in Dethethor's mind to, in a virtual sense, suggest the following "You know, if you turn traitor and ally Minas Tirith WITH me, we can get rid of this last threat to your rule and you and your sons can rule the city forever unthreatened. My servant made your son sick, do you not believe I could make him well again. Continue to oppose me and you are doomed, one way or another. Join me and your line is secure. I'm not all that confident Sauron would be that subtle at this point, but it Occurs to me that, from Denthor's POV, Aragorn's coming is as much "destruction" as the Corsairs.

[Nerwen]

But, Alfirin, if this hypothetical plan had "actually worked", Denethor would in fact have turned traitor, right?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But, Alfirin, if this hypothetical plan had "actually worked", Denethor would in fact have turned traitor, right?

Yes, had it worked, he would have. The situation as it actually turned out in the scenario I suggested requires Sauron actually either overestimating Denethor's resilience (assuming that Denethor's pride and determination to see his rule continue NO MATTER WHAT would galvanize him to levels of hidden inner strength it turned out he just didn't have anymore) or underestimating just how deeply Denthor was committed to NEVER giving in to the enemy no matter the cost.
I merely put the above as a possible scenario; a reason why it might have been in Sauron's interest to have shown Denethor events as they
actually were in Umbar, as opposed to how Denethor might have logically expected them to be (i.e. Umbar just fine, and the corsairs themselves in the boats heading up the Anduin)
Heck, for all I know, Sauron could have show Denthor Aragorn and STILL intended Denthor to off himself. He might have just hoped Denthor's pride would drive him to play dog in the manger and set the whole CITY on fire as his pyre, rather than see it fall into hands other than his own, regardless of whom.
I also admit that the scenario also has one other flaw as events stand, it requires Denthor to be so deep in his pride he is willing to actually lie to Gandalf and possibly put the city in more jeopardy (in the scenario Denethor would know it was Aragorn on the ships; and that they will get there eventually (whether in vain or not) so telling Gandalf they are enemies accoplishes nothing except spite him.)
I just merely wished to suggest that as Sauron 1. Might though is own Palantir viewing know of what Aragorn did. 2. Is not above using guile as well as brute force might concoct a way to spin this possibly significant setback in his plans (With a large part of the people of Umbar of Black Numenorean decent, I imagine Sauron might consider them "elites" among those who serve him, and their loss as a blow of note) into an advantage.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

On the other hand, if he could play into Denthors fears so much as to focus on eliminating Aragorn as soon as he arrived or even go so far as to subtly insinuate himself deep enough in Dethethor's mind to, in a virtual sense, suggest the following "You know, if you turn traitor and ally Minas Tirith WITH me, we can get rid of this last threat to your rule and you and your sons can rule the city forever unthreatened. My servant made your son sick, do you not believe I could make him well again. Continue to oppose me and you are doomed, one way or another. Join me and your line is secure.

The idea that Sauron showed Denethor his doom in Aragorn's rightful kingship is an intriguing one, and I quite like your thinking. This specific bit above about Denethor actually turning traitor, however, I consider to be most unlikely. I'm sure we're familiar with Letter 183 regarding Denethor:

It had become for him a prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it was, against another potentate, who had made himself stronger and was to be feared and opposed for that reason rather than because he was ruthless and wicked.

Hence why I think Denethor was in a no-win situation: submit to Aragorn and lose his position, or submit to Sauron and lose it. I think he hated Sauron too much as his chief "political" rival to ever consider alliance with him or even feign it the way Saruman did. Sauron and Aragorn would probably be no different in his mind: two powerful people who could oust him from his position as (in his prideful view, at least) the eminent leader in Middle-earth.

[Alfirin]

I actually agree that Denethor actually turning traitor is highly unlikely; I was merely suggesting that Sauron had adopted this plan hoping he could turn Denethor traitor, or at least, to set him on some path of action where he would squander what little defensive advantage Minas Tirith in some plan to get rid of his "rival" Aragorn or raze it to the ground just to deny it to another. That latter might be acceptable to Sauron. While he certainly wanted Minas Tirith conquered, I'm not sure if having it still more or less intact would have been as important to him. He probably would have liked to have, as Frodo put it "Two Minas Morgul's grinning out at each other across a barren waste." (or something like that) but I doubt he would consider it essential; one Minas Morgul and a pile of ruins would probably be OK too in his book.
Come to think of it Denethor might have been delusional enough by this point to think Aragorn might not stop the city being destroyed as well, in a literal not metaphorical sense. Old and venerable as Minas Tirith is, given that Aragorn has spent most of his life in the North, Denethor might assume that he plans to let Minas Tirth go to rot and create a new royal seat for himself in Arnor; closer to "home". Gandalf seems OK with letting the city be destroyed, and Aragorn is clearly in league with Gandalf, so maybe he's OK with the end of the city too.

[shadowfax]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

All of this bring up an interesting field for speculation. When Denethor views the Black Ships sailing up the Anduin in the Palantir, how much exactly did he see, or more to the point, if Sauron is controlling what the Palantir shows him by this point what exactly is he showing Denethor? Objectively, it is reasonable to assume Denethor saw exactly what he claimed to have seen, black ships sailing up the Anduin, and interpreted it (perfectly logically, given the circumstances) as meaning the Corsairs were sailing up from Umbar to Join the battle on Sauron's side. In and of itself this would be perfectly good reason to break down (especially since it would mean Lebennen would be enemy controlled by now, and Minas Tirith now more or less wholly surrounded with no way to flee left. But , given the kind of man Denethor is, I wonder if at this point Sauron, despairing with breaking him for good by displays of Mordor's might might, and havin some idea of how Denthor thinks. have tried a new tactic, one that actually worked, namely playing into Denthor's nature by letting (or making) him see what is ACTUALLY happening i.e letting him seen Aragorn routing the Corsairs and setting sail. By doing this he would basically be showing Denthor that, even if he could repulse Mordor's army, he would STILL "lose everything"; the king was coming back. I Denethor saw the Dead Men obeying Aragorn/Thorongil's orders, he would no longer have any doubts that Aragorn was the King, and any hopes he might of had of disputing the claim post battle would have evaporated. Objectively, Sauron probably knows that in the long run, while Denthor's death would weaken Minas Tirith, it alone could not make the city simply fall; that there would be others to take over command, that the Men of Rohan would be arriving at Pellenor soon, and (eventually) Aragorn himself was showing up and what that would likely mean. On the other hand, if he could play into Denthors fears so much as to focus on eliminating Aragorn as soon as he arrived or even go so far as to subtly insinuate himself deep enough in Dethethor's mind to, in a virtual sense, suggest the following "You know, if you turn traitor and ally Minas Tirith WITH me, we can get rid of this last threat to your rule and you and your sons can rule the city forever unthreatened. My servant made your son sick, do you not believe I could make him well again. Continue to oppose me and you are doomed, one way or another. Join me and your line is secure. I'm not all that confident Sauron would be that subtle at this point, but it Occurs to me that, from Denthor's POV, Aragorn's coming is as much "destruction" as the Corsairs.

Interesting.

This raises another point in my mind.

Did Sauron actually know that Aragorn had captured the Corsair ships?

It would seem at least at the battle of Pellenor Field, that his troops were wholly unprepared. If Sauron had known, he could have anticipated Aragaorn's arrival by deploying his troops differently. Surely he could have sent a Nazgul to get the message there in time?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by shadowfax

Did Sauron actually know that Aragorn had captured the Corsair ships?

I think Sauron did not know. His attention seems to have been so focused on Minas Tirith that he was blind to all else. He knew of Aragorn, of course, but he would have been forgiven for naturally assuming Aragorn would immediately head for Minas Tirith to rally forces against him.