The effect of the Great Rings upon Men

[Ivriniel]

hi there Belegorn, Findegil and Galin

@Galin

I like the "deer in headlights" metaphor, and the other one upstream somewhere.

The Deer, tho, I'd argue is 'tightly' knit to sinew in fear. Rigid in fact. I've, of a night time, often watched lights approaching in the pitch, and where there is no sound, they are quite captivating. There's the sense of not knowing what it means and which way to move as there is the sense of both 'nothing' of body and yet 'growing light'.

I wonder if it 'tunes' us into the whole 'light at the end of the tunnel' journey, life, death and all those who died for a short while who speak of light and so on? Just a thought.

@all

......cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

It does seem as tho there is reference to the effect-metaphysical of the ...breaking... the initial influence of the Ring Spell, both in its line of 'sight'/'link' from The One to any/all of The Nine. And the Numenorean Blade fashioned in Arnor "...long..." by some Smith of Lore, who "wove about" or "wound about" (I forget which, see upstream), a ...spell... to allow the blade an effect. I assume a counter-spell of some nature? Could a Man of War, c.f. Hobbit or Woman have dealt the blow-equivalent? Was there something about Hobbit-ish or Woman-ish nature that augmented the Blade's 'purpose'. Tolkien did speak of Blades of Power having purpose. Beleg's blade, for example, forged of Meteorite.

I've never been quite sure about the nature of Numenorean blades. On the one hand, less 'something' than Sting (recall Shelob's web and Sting v Numenor to cut them). Yet, Tolkien states that 'no other blade' (upon the Nazgul) would have dealt a blow so bitter.

As always with Tolkien there's always an '...iest' that has a rival. Galadriel 'mightiest' then someone 'fairest' - ha? Luthien v Galadriel. Or s/he who wrought the '--iest' this or that

[Galin]

I like the "deer in headlights" metaphor, and the other one upstream somewhere.

The Deer, tho, I'd argue is 'tightly' knit to sinew in fear. Rigid in fact. I've, of a night time, often watched lights approaching in the pitch, and where there is no sound, they are quite captivating. There's the sense of not knowing what it means and which way to move as there is the sense of both 'nothing' of body and yet 'growing light'.

Well it's not a perfect analogy, I realize. But anyway, unknit my will to my sinews (break the connection between will and body) during a battle and, no how matter how strong or how great a warrior I am, I'm now a sitting duck. I want to dodge the deadly blow, or lift my arm to try and parry it, but I can't will my limbs to move or act... even if my opponent is now not exactly moving swiftly to strike me...

Eowyn! Eowyn! cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle,...

It's even arguable that if Imrahil stuck his dagger in the Nazgul-lord's leg he (the Witch-king) might not fall down. Sure it would be painful, but in the heat of battle unless the leg is cut so that it can hardly support weight, one won't necessarily fall down, in my opinion. But this was no ordinary dagger in any case, it had a helpful effect even when not struck in a "lethal" place.

Was there something about Hobbit-ish or Woman-ish nature that augmented the Blade's 'purpose'.

Hmm, I never thought so. The Hobbit and female aspect concerns fulfilling the prophecy in my opinion.

Here I think Tolkien plays with a seeming (measure of) invulnerability. If not by the hand of M(m)an would the Witch-king fall, how would he be defeated? Well these things are often technical and tricky, and technically Merry is not a Man (although he is male), Eowyn not a man (although she belongs to the race of Men).

Not that you said otherwise about that much, in any case.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

Well it's not a perfect analogy-->snip

Yeah, but it's still a good analogy, and perfectly so. Your post really got me thinking about w(W)ill in a perfectly different way. I also liked what you did with (M)man - and reckon it adds to pondering the works. For a w(W)ill - one gets a different glimpse - if thinking will versus Will of Men. For men and dear is very different to Tolkien-ese Men and Deer (this one moves to Yavanna and, no doubt the Deer with lines to the Maia and First Faun of the First Age - under, perhaps Tilion's moon born, with First Touch of Valinorean knowing.

The deer and the man of the 21st century yet still both have will. And wondering about those as 'will-natural' (not will-socialised) beings yields knowing about the M(man) who was the Witch King at the end of the Third Age. It was what prompted my thoughts about 'hobbit-ish' and 'woman-ish' blows to fulfil Glorfindel's Prophesy at the Battle of Fornost. Eoywn - she claimed she 'was not a man' (or was it spoken Man).....

Then pondering the Will-Undead, there were also the Wights of the Barrow Downs, who were created, I thought, by Angmar and a part of the reason Arnor failed. The occupation of the Burial Mounds of Arnor were violated by Undead presence which somehow caused the realm to fail... Necromantic Undead Will, even in burial mounds had some pervasive influence on Arnor's strength.

snip <--It's even arguable that if Imrahil stuck his dagger in the Nazgul-lord's leg he (the Witch-king) might not fall down. Sure it would be painful, but in the heat of battle unless the leg is cut so that it can hardly support weight, one won't necessarily fall down, in my opinion. But this was no ordinary dagger in any case, it had a helpful effect even when not struck in a "lethal" place.

Well as Ivriniel (Imrahil's great great....aunt), I'd say that 'my n(N)ephew may well have had a good shot at downing him - with some Elven blood - another candidate, yes, seems like another candidate, if a Hobbit or W(w)oman were successful.

Here I think Tolkien plays with a seeming (measure of) invulnerability. If not by the hand of M(m)an would the Witch-king fall, how would he be defeated? Well these things are often technical and tricky, and technically Merry is not a Man (although he is male), Eowyn not a man (although she belongs to the race of Men).

makes sense.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Then pondering the Will-Undead, there were also the Wights of the Barrow Downs, who were created, I thought, by Angmar and a part of the reason Arnor failed. The occupation of the Burial Mounds of Arnor were violated by Undead presence which somehow caused the realm to fail... Necromantic Undead Will, even in burial mounds had some pervasive influence on Arnor's strength.

This relates back to the idea of Elves and Fading, as it is suggested in Morgoth's Ring that Undead in Middle-earth (like the Barrow-wights) tend to be "Houseless": Elvish fëa which have refused the call to Mandos and haunt Middle-earth.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

This relates back to the idea of Elves and Fading, as it is suggested in Morgoth's Ring that Undead in Middle-earth (like the Barrow-wights) tend to be "Houseless": Elvish fëa which have refused the call to Mandos and haunt Middle-earth.

I read that upstream, likening the 'process' (of Undead-ising) to The Fading. It's very interesting, don't you think. It does quite really seem the Sauronic-metaphysical variant-ish, likening 'invisibility'--or--'fading' by continued use of a Ring. I'm transported to Elrond's Houses of Healing and Frodo's 'transparency' after his healing by Elrond. A Houseless Spirit, then, does it follow that the Nine were not gathered by Mandos, and so, does this mean that Middle Earth has wandering spirits, perhaps haunting ones?

[Galin]

I've got to check on the Nazgûl, but based on some instances in which the Witch-king is mentioned I doubt he is invulnerable as Galin pointed out. Take for example his fear of certain Dúnedain. Why would he fear them if he were invulnerable to most/all weapons and they were not?

"Boromir was a great captain and even the Witch-king feared him." [Appendix A: The Stewards]

Good points, and I agree. Some have countered that the Witch-king didn't fear this Boromir personally, but feared him in the sense that he was a great captain and stategist. I don't buy that myself. Tolkien also notes that he was a man strong in body and will...

"Boromir was a great captain, and even the Witch-king feared him. He was noble and fair of face, a man strong in body and in will, but he received a Morgul-wound in that war which shortened his days, and he became shrunken with pain and died twelve years after his father."

One needs a strong will to first stand against the unreasoning fear a wraith imparts, then you've got a chance in battle against them. This is why I think the Witch-king feared Boromir, that he had a notably strong will, as well as physical strength. Tolkien, of course, sets up the scenario by which Eowyn will also conquer her fear, and Merry as well, enough to help her.

Some also point to:

"Over the hills of slain a hideous shape appeared: a horseman, tall, hooded, cloaked in black. Slowly, trampling the fallen, he rode forth, heeding no longer any dart. He halted and held up a long pale sword. And as he did so a great fear fell upon all, defender and foe alike; and the hands of men dropped to their sides, and no bows sang. For a moment all was still."

But this hardly proves invulnerability in my opinion, considering he heeded "no longer" any dart (which seems to suggest he had heeded them before this point). For me I think this is hubris, mixed with the Wraith's knowledge of his own effect upon Men...

... for we see, here at least, his effect will stop the bowmen from shooting in any case, at least for a time.

[Ivriniel]

thanx for the reputation posts, muchly appreciated....just writing here coz I can't allocate reputation posts, and so didn't want to seem rude. I've written to administrator to see what's happened. cheers

Originally Posted by Galin

Good points, and I agree. Some have countered that the Witch-king didn't fear this Boromir personally, but feared him in the sense that he was a great captain and stategist. I don't buy that myself. Tolkien also notes that he was a man strong in body and will...

Agree with you. I reckon the Witchking had a 'smell sense' or instinct of sorts for the mega-Numenoreans and Boromir wasn't very Numenorean. Faramir might have had a chance.

But this hardly proves invulnerability in my opinion....

I'm still wondering about 'what' weapons could have harmed him and on what terms. I'm still also allowing for a 'psychological' or 'body-material' effect of his combatant/s as influential factors.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Agree with you. I reckon the Witchking had a 'smell sense' or instinct of sorts for the mega-Numenoreans and Boromir wasn't very Numenorean. Faramir might have had a chance.

For clarity I'm arguing/agreeing that the Witch-king did fear this Boromir personally, although this is not the Boromir of the Fellowship. You might be aware of this but your addition of Faramir here made me wonder if we are talking about the same Boromir.

[Belegorn]

I don't know if the Witch-king had a sense for Dúnedain which both Boromirs were. The Boromir I had mentioned was the Steward Boromir who got stabbed by a Nazgûl when he drove them off in Ithilien. On the same issue with Dúnedain and the Witch-king he did fight them for hundreds of years in the North in Arnor and eventually destroyed Arthedain. There was also Eärnur who was clearly a mighty Dúnadan and there is no implication that the Witch-king feared him at all.

"Eärnur was a man like his father in valour [Eärnil II led Gondor's armies against the Wainriders and saved Gondor from destuction. He also had defended Gondor's southern borders], but not in wisdom. He was a man of strong body and hot mood; but he would take no wife, for his only pleasure was in fighting, or in the exercise of arms. His prowess was such that none in Gondor could stand against him in those weapon-sports in which he delighted, seeming rather a champion than a captain or king, and retaining his vigour and skill to a later age than was then usual." [Appendix A: Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion]

Even with all his prowess the Witch-king attacked Eärnur when his army was wiped out.

Originally Posted by Appendix A: Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion

he singled out the Captain of Gondor for the fullness of his hatred, and with a terrible cry he rode straight for him. Eärnur would have withstood him; but his horse could not endure the onset, and it swerved and bore him far away before he could master it.

This is the time when Glorfindel said he wouldn't fall by the hand of man. The Witch-king taunted Eärnur ever since until he finally could not be restrained by any of his men and went to duel him years later to his own end. I do not quite know why Boromir himself put the fear of the Valar into the Witch-king for I do not think he was the greatest Dúnadan he had ever come across. It seems most or all of the Stewards were mighty, even a shrunken Denethor ll, and clearly the kings were great warriors too.

[Mithadan]

May I respectfully make a suggestion? There are now 62 posts in this thread, which is truly admirable. However, at best, 6 posts relate to the original topic. The balance raise a variety of well-reasoned issues, but they do not respond to the topic here. Jallanite opened a new thread to discuss one of his issues. Why don't others? There are perhaps a half dozen different and discrete topics in this thread worthy of discussion.

BE BRAVE!!!!! Start a new thread to raise your issues! I couldn't care less if you copied whatever you wrote in this thread, but PLEASE start a new thread. A newcomer might read the first 3 posts and have no interest. They may never reach post 20 that raises an entirely new issue,

START A NEW THREAD!

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I don't know if the Witch-king had a sense for Dúnedain which both Boromirs were. The Boromir I had mentioned was the Steward Boromir who got stabbed by a Nazgûl when he drove them off in Ithilien. On the same issue with Dúnedain and the Witch-king he did fight them for hundreds of years in the North in Arnor and eventually destroyed Arthedain. There was also Eärnur who was clearly a mighty Dúnadan and there is no implication that the Witch-king feared him at all.

It's been a long time since I pondered any Boromirs at all, and vaguely remember there was more than one of them. I don't like the name much and never had much inclination towards any Boromirs

but....

"Eärnur was a man like his father in valour [Eärnil II led Gondor's armies against the Wainriders and saved Gondor from destuction. He also had defended Gondor's southern borders], but not in wisdom. He was a man of strong body and hot mood; but he would take no wife, for his only pleasure was in fighting, or in the exercise of arms. His prowess was such that none in Gondor could stand against him in those weapon-sports in which he delighted, seeming rather a champion than a captain or king, and retaining his vigour and skill to a later age than was then usual." [Appendix A: Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion]

Even with all his prowess the Witch-king attacked Eärnur when his army was wiped out.

I think it's quite reasonable to raise the issue of Earnur and all the associated information as we ponder Witchking-isation and Wraithdom. The Eanur/nil combo got me thinking about our Last King of the Southern Realm and why he felt the call to respond to the Witchking's summons.

I wonder--perhaps old Witchy-poo-man-thing 'smelled', or unsmelled the same metaphysical 'stench' upon Earnur (hot tempered man of might and brauns, no wife, prolly not very capable of intimacy, sounds like, with a love of fighting, predominantly) as was upon the Witchking, himself. The one and the same that led to his succumbing to the call of one of the Nine. Perhaps Sauron could 'discern' by conversation, or necromantic Spell of some sort how much of a 'man's fibre' could be 'snatched' per use of his (creepy) rings based on temperament and behaviour.

I wonder then - Merry and Eowyn, again.

Merry - not really one with a 'love of battle' yet hardy was he of Spirit Will and Fibre. And Eowyn, not 'called to battle' for vanity or honour, but by cold, steel will and frail heart of lapsed love. Yet a heart that is frail, perhaps, for sensing 'stench' of the kinds of Men who 'snatch' love from her Valorous heart and so, she strove to fell that which was betrayer of her capacity to love.

Only an analysis by metaphor.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

For clarity I'm arguing/agreeing that the Witch-king did fear this Boromir personally, although this is not the Boromir of the Fellowship. You might be aware of this but your addition of Faramir here made me wonder if we are talking about the same Boromir.

I wasn't, actually. Thanx for prompting. I now dimly recall from a very long time ago in my readings that there was more than one Boromir. It's been a very long time since I read of the Numenorean Realms in Exile, and I never really engaged with the Stewardship mythology.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"No other blade could have dealt that foe a wound so bitter..."

Which to me says not that no other blade could wound him, just that no other blade could wound him as badly. After all, the W-K's supposed invulnerability isn't ever stated; instead what we have is a prophecy by Glorfindel, "not by the hand of man shall he fall," which is not at all the same thing as PJ's dunderheaded "No man can kill me."