The effect of the Great Rings upon Men

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Agree with you. I reckon the Witchking had a 'smell sense' or instinct of sorts for the mega-Numenoreans and Boromir wasn't very Numenorean. Faramir might have had a chance.

For clarity I'm arguing/agreeing that the Witch-king did fear this Boromir personally, although this is not the Boromir of the Fellowship. You might be aware of this but your addition of Faramir here made me wonder if we are talking about the same Boromir.

[Belegorn]

I don't know if the Witch-king had a sense for Dúnedain which both Boromirs were. The Boromir I had mentioned was the Steward Boromir who got stabbed by a Nazgûl when he drove them off in Ithilien. On the same issue with Dúnedain and the Witch-king he did fight them for hundreds of years in the North in Arnor and eventually destroyed Arthedain. There was also Eärnur who was clearly a mighty Dúnadan and there is no implication that the Witch-king feared him at all.

"Eärnur was a man like his father in valour [Eärnil II led Gondor's armies against the Wainriders and saved Gondor from destuction. He also had defended Gondor's southern borders], but not in wisdom. He was a man of strong body and hot mood; but he would take no wife, for his only pleasure was in fighting, or in the exercise of arms. His prowess was such that none in Gondor could stand against him in those weapon-sports in which he delighted, seeming rather a champion than a captain or king, and retaining his vigour and skill to a later age than was then usual." [Appendix A: Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion]

Even with all his prowess the Witch-king attacked Eärnur when his army was wiped out.

Originally Posted by Appendix A: Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion

he singled out the Captain of Gondor for the fullness of his hatred, and with a terrible cry he rode straight for him. Eärnur would have withstood him; but his horse could not endure the onset, and it swerved and bore him far away before he could master it.

This is the time when Glorfindel said he wouldn't fall by the hand of man. The Witch-king taunted Eärnur ever since until he finally could not be restrained by any of his men and went to duel him years later to his own end. I do not quite know why Boromir himself put the fear of the Valar into the Witch-king for I do not think he was the greatest Dúnadan he had ever come across. It seems most or all of the Stewards were mighty, even a shrunken Denethor ll, and clearly the kings were great warriors too.

[Mithadan]

May I respectfully make a suggestion? There are now 62 posts in this thread, which is truly admirable. However, at best, 6 posts relate to the original topic. The balance raise a variety of well-reasoned issues, but they do not respond to the topic here. Jallanite opened a new thread to discuss one of his issues. Why don't others? There are perhaps a half dozen different and discrete topics in this thread worthy of discussion.

BE BRAVE!!!!! Start a new thread to raise your issues! I couldn't care less if you copied whatever you wrote in this thread, but PLEASE start a new thread. A newcomer might read the first 3 posts and have no interest. They may never reach post 20 that raises an entirely new issue,

START A NEW THREAD!

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I don't know if the Witch-king had a sense for Dúnedain which both Boromirs were. The Boromir I had mentioned was the Steward Boromir who got stabbed by a Nazgûl when he drove them off in Ithilien. On the same issue with Dúnedain and the Witch-king he did fight them for hundreds of years in the North in Arnor and eventually destroyed Arthedain. There was also Eärnur who was clearly a mighty Dúnadan and there is no implication that the Witch-king feared him at all.

It's been a long time since I pondered any Boromirs at all, and vaguely remember there was more than one of them. I don't like the name much and never had much inclination towards any Boromirs

but....

"Eärnur was a man like his father in valour [Eärnil II led Gondor's armies against the Wainriders and saved Gondor from destuction. He also had defended Gondor's southern borders], but not in wisdom. He was a man of strong body and hot mood; but he would take no wife, for his only pleasure was in fighting, or in the exercise of arms. His prowess was such that none in Gondor could stand against him in those weapon-sports in which he delighted, seeming rather a champion than a captain or king, and retaining his vigour and skill to a later age than was then usual." [Appendix A: Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion]

Even with all his prowess the Witch-king attacked Eärnur when his army was wiped out.

I think it's quite reasonable to raise the issue of Earnur and all the associated information as we ponder Witchking-isation and Wraithdom. The Eanur/nil combo got me thinking about our Last King of the Southern Realm and why he felt the call to respond to the Witchking's summons.

I wonder--perhaps old Witchy-poo-man-thing 'smelled', or unsmelled the same metaphysical 'stench' upon Earnur (hot tempered man of might and brauns, no wife, prolly not very capable of intimacy, sounds like, with a love of fighting, predominantly) as was upon the Witchking, himself. The one and the same that led to his succumbing to the call of one of the Nine. Perhaps Sauron could 'discern' by conversation, or necromantic Spell of some sort how much of a 'man's fibre' could be 'snatched' per use of his (creepy) rings based on temperament and behaviour.

I wonder then - Merry and Eowyn, again.

Merry - not really one with a 'love of battle' yet hardy was he of Spirit Will and Fibre. And Eowyn, not 'called to battle' for vanity or honour, but by cold, steel will and frail heart of lapsed love. Yet a heart that is frail, perhaps, for sensing 'stench' of the kinds of Men who 'snatch' love from her Valorous heart and so, she strove to fell that which was betrayer of her capacity to love.

Only an analysis by metaphor.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

For clarity I'm arguing/agreeing that the Witch-king did fear this Boromir personally, although this is not the Boromir of the Fellowship. You might be aware of this but your addition of Faramir here made me wonder if we are talking about the same Boromir.

I wasn't, actually. Thanx for prompting. I now dimly recall from a very long time ago in my readings that there was more than one Boromir. It's been a very long time since I read of the Numenorean Realms in Exile, and I never really engaged with the Stewardship mythology.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"No other blade could have dealt that foe a wound so bitter..."

Which to me says not that no other blade could wound him, just that no other blade could wound him as badly. After all, the W-K's supposed invulnerability isn't ever stated; instead what we have is a prophecy by Glorfindel, "not by the hand of man shall he fall," which is not at all the same thing as PJ's dunderheaded "No man can kill me."

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Giving of rings: let's not forget that the Appendices post-dated the writing of Book I by ten years and more; there is no indication that the story of Thror giving Thrain his Ring while still on his two feet and then toddling off to Moria existed before the writing of Durin's Folk, and almost certainly wasn't yet conceived when Tolkien wrote the passage in question (heck, Moria itself didn't exist yet). At the time, to the extent he thought of it it all, he likely assumed the Ring was handed over on Thror's deathbed, or simply found among the dead king's effects, as it had been from father to son for dwarven generations.

Similarly, the passing around of the Elf-Rings seems to have arisen at the Appendices stage, or at the earliest during the writing of the final chapters in one long burst, and wasn't anything he considered while writing Chapter 2 a decade earlier.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Which to me says not that no other blade could wound him, just that no other blade could wound him as badly. After all, the W-K's supposed invulnerability isn't ever stated; instead what we have is a prophecy by Glorfindel, "not by the hand of man shall he fall," which is not at all the same thing as PJ's dunderheaded "No man can kill me."

Yes. However, there's a premise missing.

The 'blade of Arnor' argument is a two-pronged position (pardon pun) not one of '...how bitterly...' "a" blade might hurt him. 1. Spell; 2. To target an invulnerability. Devised for it, in fact, it does seem.

The Arnor blade had a counter spell that attacked something specific in the Witchking. It was about the knitting of will to undead flesh. I don't recall normal metal ever having such an imbued property in the mythology. Do you? There's part of the invulnerability addressed, by a specific reference to Lore. You may argue what a normal blade would do, and if any effect can be imputed of 'any' blade to 'knitting' (I don't think it's easy to knit a scarf with a blade).

Prophesy referring to the "hand of man" and not "a man" of course is the exact tension mounted by Tolkien. I suspect he did it on purpose. We think 'of humans with human DNA' when we read "hand of man". Yet, Eowyn played the gender card, which is rather interesting, which refers to what you said.

This must imply, then that Glorfindel's prophesy was circumscribed, in, perhaps a discernment he missed. We found that Holbytlan and female downed him. That leaves us pondering what it is about Holbytlan and women that was different. There's a lot about Halfling 'fibre' and their general resistance to Evil, and about their hardiness of body. I'm not clear what it was that Tolkien was saying about men and women (lower case 'm' and 'w') that was at work that enabled Eowyn to do something no man in the many hundreds of years of wars with Arnor could.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Yes. However, there's a premise missing.

The 'blade of Arnor' argument is a two-pronged position (pardon pun) not one of '...how bitterly...' "a" blade might hurt him. 1. Spell; 2. To target an invulnerability. Devised for it, in fact, it does seem.

The Arnor blade had a counter spell that attacked something specific in the Witchking. It was about the knitting of will to undead flesh. I don't recall normal metal ever having such an imbued property in the mythology. Do you? There's part of the invulnerability addressed, by a specific reference to Lore. You may argue what a normal blade would do, and if any effect can be imputed of 'any' blade to 'knitting' (I don't think it's easy to knit a scarf with a blade).

The blade didn't knit anything- it un-knit it.

Anyway, is your argument here that, since any effect *less* than "breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will" would be negligible, Merry's blade *may as well* have been the only one that could wound the Witch-king?

This must imply, then that Glorfindel's prophesy was circumscribed, in, perhaps a discernment he missed. We found that Holbytlan and female downed him. That leaves us pondering what it is about Holbytlan and women that was different. There's a lot about Halfling 'fibre' and their general resistance to Evil, and about their hardiness of body. I'm not clear what it was that Tolkien was saying about men and women (lower case 'm' and 'w') that was at work that enabled Eowyn to do something no man in the many hundreds of years of wars with Arnor could.

I have always taken it that Glorfindel meant, simply, that no man *would* kill the Witch-king, not that no man *could* kill him. That is, it's not that women and hobbits as groups possessed any innate Witch-king lethality, it's just that the individuals who killed him *happened* to be a woman and a hobbit. (Similarly, Macduff is not generally assumed to have had special Macbeth-killing powers as a result of being a Caesarian birth.)

[Ivriniel]

Hi Nerwin, about knitting, yes I know. It's in about a hundred places upstream together with the Canon citation which I have not bothered to re-quote, as I assumed it had been read.....that's why I suggested that one shouldn't knit with swords. (scarves, as in with wool, etc. Cuts the wool)

Interesting 'would-could' distinction. I have echoes of the same recollection. But a poster, upstream donged that on the head.

There's a canon citation, that points out that Earn(ur/il) (I forget which forgive me, anyhooz, the last King of Gondor) did not quail when Witchy Poo charged. It was the horse that blew a fuse and ran off.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Interesting 'would-could' distinction. I have echoes of the same recollection. But a poster, upstream donged that on the head.

Who was that? I can't find the post.

There's a canon citation, that points out that Earn(ur/il) (I forget which forgive me, anyhooz, the last King of Gondor) did not quail when Witchy Poo charged. It was the horse that blew a fuse and ran off.

That's correct. It was Earnur, and that was in fact the occasion of Glorfindel uttering his prophecy about "not by the hand of man will he fall".

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I have always taken it that Glorfindel meant, simply, that no man *would* kill the Witch-king, not that no man *could* kill him. That is, it's not that women and hobbits as groups possessed any innate Witch-king lethality, it's just that the individuals who killed him *happened* to be a woman and a hobbit. (Similarly, Macduff is not generally assumed to have had special Macbeth-killing powers as a result of being a Caesarian birth.)

I agree. Good note on Macbeth too. It nicely illustrates the "technicalities" of these kinds of things. Macduff still had a mother of course, he was just not "born" in the usual way.