Question for the Sindarin experts: is Meril still valid?

[jallanite]

On page 300 of Morgoth’s Ring (Home II) Christoper Tolkien prints a short article entitled “Note on Dating” in which he discusses his guesses on the chronology of the texts printed in “The Later QUENTA SILMARILLION (II)”. I don’t see reason in printing out the whole thing but will summarize. Christopher Tolkien dates all the material to 1957–59. In particular he finds the text called Laws and Customs among the Eldar and Chapter 6(–7) of the Quenta Silmarilion were typed on a “new typewriter with a rather distinctive typeface” upon which the first letter that he knows to be typed by his father was dated January 1959. Both of these texts mention Ælfwine.

I have mentioned this previously, but you have have once posted and once implied that a sole example of Ælfwine was found. For my mentions see:

See pages 208–09 for the mention of Ælfwine in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar which is in the chapter with the page heading “The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)”. On page 225 occurs the notation, “So spoke Ælfwine.” On page 257 Tolkien in another later essay under the same page heading includes a footnote from Ælfwine about Míriel Sirende.

If only a sole reference had been found that would still be sufficient to show that at that time Tolkien still thought Ælfwine to be valid.

The source is in http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...2&postcount=35.

You are wrong that I misunderstood a mention of Tolkien’s publication the Lord of the Rings for a mention of his creation of it. If I have done so in anything I have posted, that is not something I have done in these posts in general. Posting inaccurately is something I try not to do, though I sometimes fail to live up to it.

The last three chapters of “The Later QUENTA SILMARILLION (I)” were written by Tolkien later than the first five chapters and after the amanuensis typescript was made. Christopher Tolkien dates the amanuensis typescript to 1958. In this later manuscript (dating to 1958 or later), there is, in chapter 6, a footnote purportedly by Ælfwine in which he mentions Bryde Míriel. There is also a footnote about Orcs attributed to Ælfwine in chapter 7. In his summary of chapter 8 Christopher Tolkien compares a similar passage in AAm to the Quenta Silmarillion and makes it clear that AAm here mentions Ælfwine, but he does not clarify whether or not the Quenta Silmarillion also does at this place.

Note that I do not discuss anywhere the earlier potions of LC 1, which Christopher dates to 1951, or discuss the contents of the later amanuensis typescript as it is simply a copy of the 1951 text.

Christopher Tolkien makes it quite clear on page 47 that he dates The Annals of Aman to “the large development and recasting of the Matter of the Elder Days that my father undertook when The Lord of the Rings was finished (see p. 3)”, and I am aware of this. But on page 3 he does not specifically mention it save when the says that The Annals of Aman (not dated at this point) were a close companion work to the Grey Annals. And he does not indicate when this “development and recasting” ended. He never, so far as I know, actually dates The Annals of Aman, save in part on page 191 when he questions which was earlier: the portions of The Annals of Aman then being worked on or the corresponding chapters 6–8 of the Quenta Silmarillion. He concludes only that he cannot decide but “that the two texts were closely contemporary.”

This dates the portions of the Annals of Aman, against which Tolkien was writing, about 1958, Of course the early sections of the Annals of Aman could be earlier, even much earlier.

The only mention of “Ælfwine” in the Annals of Aman are to a quotation about Ælfwine’s opinion of the creation of the Orcs including some words attributed to “Pengoloð”. See §127. This passage is mostly omitted in the typescript including the mention of Ælfwine and in any case this passage is probably early. Later in the Annals of Aman §172 occurs the footnote “* Marginal notes against Arien and Tilion: ‘dægdred Æ’ and ‘hyrned Æ’” in which I assume that Æ stands for Ælfwine, and so does Christopher Tolkien in his comment.

You will find portions of what I type above repetitive. I wanted to include everything because, possibly because of my previous wording, you seem to have misunderstood some of it.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

My point still stands, untouched by your carping: all mentions of Aelfwine post-LR date from the 1950s, and all but one Aelfwine document either definitely or probably date from JRRT's creative surge in 1949-53 between the LR's completion and publication.

Your point never stood. I don’t accept it and have given my reasons. Do you still not understand?

Christopher Tolkien does not definitely date any of the passages I have discussed from “The Later Quenta Silmarillion (I)” or “The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)” to before 1958. The one mention of Æ in The Annals of Aman is dated about the same time as the last three chapters of the Later Quenta Silmarillion (I), close to 1958, possibly even later.

There is no extant evidence for Aelfwine's continued existence after the 1950s, and certainly none near or subsequent in time to 1965-66, the period of the Revised Edition and the Plotz interview, where the Bilbo-vector came to the fore.

I never claimed otherwise, never. You have no reason to complain about this.

Got paranoia?

Not at all.

Sheesh, talk about a persecution complex!

No thanks.

I don't give a rat's patoot whether you use 'em or not.

That’s good.

I was and am bothered by the hoity-toity way in which you slammed Arvegil:

That was bad behavior and I apologize for it again: I apologize, for it again, Arvegil145.

I daresay Arvegil's English is much better than your Czech, Polish or Croatian.

I daresay it is.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Hello, master Jallanite!

Hello, Arvegil145.

I have long delayed the response to your insolent and pompous statement.

No problem. I was being unreasonably snarky, and I apologize.

You see...I DO use the ALT-codes when writing the names of say, FinwË or ThÉoden, but the problem is (which obviously you did not perceive) that the letters (both capital and small) Æ, Ê, Û, and a few others I CANNOT write down with ALT-codes but only with copy-paste method. If you wonder why, I will tell you a little secret - I come from a Slavic country which DOES NOT use such symbols. On my keyboard there are the following symbols: Č, Ć, Đ, Ž, Š - which do not require any bothering with ALT-codes.

That explains everything. I knew you normally posted using non US-keyboard values where appropriate.

So please, think before you write down such erroneous and ignorant comments.

Good advice.

Yours truly, a Slavic, ignorant, non-English speaking self.

One of the most intelligent persons, or perhaps the most intelligent person, I ever knew had Slavic parents. She was Alexandra Kiceniuk and contributed to my book http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-M.../dp/0905220102.

P.S. I don't really think that any of our discussions belong to this thread - they are so off-topic that I find it hilarious.

I agree. It is fun when a discussion opponent is too stubborn to admit he is wrong, but perhaps I should just not respond to William Cloud Hicklin at all.