Question for the Sindarin experts: is Meril still valid?

[Arvegil145]

Hello, master Jallanite!

I have long delayed the response to your insolent and pompous statement.

You see...I DO use the ALT-codes when writing the names of say, FinwË or ThÉoden, but the problem is (which obviously you did not perceive) that the letters (both capital and small) Æ, Ê, Û, and a few others I CANNOT write down with ALT-codes but only with copy-paste method. If you wonder why, I will tell you a little secret - I come from a Slavic country which DOES NOT use such symbols. On my keyboard there are the following symbols: Č, Ć, Đ, Ž, Š - which do not require any bothering with ALT-codes.

So please, think before you write down such erroneous and ignorant comments.


Yours truly, a Slavic, ignorant, non-English speaking self.


P.S. I don't really think that any of our discussions belong to this thread - they are so off-topic that I find it hilarious.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Aha! Who is wrong like big dog here?

Originally Posted by jallanite

On page 47 of Morgoth’s Ring Christopher Tolkien states:
This work [the Annals of Aman] undoubtedly belongs with the large development and recasting of the Matter of the Elder Days that my father undertook when The Lord of the Rings was finished (see p. 3).

Yes- by which CT means after his father had finished the writing of the Lord of the Rings, in 1949, not its publication in 1954-55. That misapprehension on your part explains why you misread my original post, and further leads you to misdate the last three chapters of QS.

Originally Posted by Christopher Tolkien

In the foreword to Morgoth's Ring I emphasized the distinction between the first period of writing that followed in the early 1950s the actual completion of The Lord of the Rings, and the later work that followed its publication...

The number of new works that my father embarked upon in that first 'phase,' highly creative but all too brief, is astonishing. There were the new Lay of Leithian.... the Annals of Aman and new versions of the Ainulindale; the Grey Annals, abandoned at the end of the tale of Turin; the new Tale of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin.... and all the new tale of Turin and Nienor from Turin's return to Dor-Lomin to their deaths in Brethil. There were also an abandoned prose saga of Beren and Luthien; the story of Maeglin; and an extensive revision of the Quenta Silmarillion.

And further,

[A] calendar, with dates in September, October, and November 1951, was used for riders to Tuor and the Grey Annals (the last version of the Annals of Beleriand and a close companion work to the Annals of Aman)

[Yes, this is the very same passage on Page 3 of MR to which your own cite refers back. Your passage continues:]

...and it stands in close relationship to the revision at that time of the corresponding parts of the Quenta Silmarillion (V.204-43, referred to throughout as QS), the text which had been abandoned at the end of 1937. Equally clearly it followed the last text of the Ainulindale (D)

You have been led astray by your misdating of AAm and subsequent dating in reference to it.

Originally Posted by jallanite

The Lord of the Rings was published in three volumes over the course of a year from 29 July 1954 to 20 October 1955. Christopher Tolkien dates all the material in the sections headed “The Later QUENTA SILMARILLION (I)” and “The Later QUENTA SILMARILLION (II)” as following this, not “before the publication of The Lord of the Rings.”

was simply, completely wrong.



My point still stands, untouched by your carping: all mentions of Aelfwine post-LR date from the 1950s, and all but one Aelfwine document either definitely or probably date from JRRT's creative surge in 1949-53 between the LR's completion and publication. There is no extant evidence for Aelfwine's continued existence after the 1950s, and certainly none near or subsequent in time to 1965-66, the period of the Revised Edition and the Plotz interview, where the Bilbo-vector came to the fore.

-----------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by jallanite

It really does seem to bother you that I use utilities to type non-keyboard characters. That is not enough to make me stop.

Got paranoia? Sheesh, talk about a persecution complex! I don't give a rat's patoot whether you use 'em or not. I was and am bothered by the hoity-toity way in which you slammed Arvegil:

You mean Ælfwine, not Aelfwine, of course. Your English is as bad as your Elvish.

I daresay Arvegil's English is much better than your Czech, Polish or Croatian.

[jallanite]

On page 300 of Morgoth’s Ring (Home II) Christoper Tolkien prints a short article entitled “Note on Dating” in which he discusses his guesses on the chronology of the texts printed in “The Later QUENTA SILMARILLION (II)”. I don’t see reason in printing out the whole thing but will summarize. Christopher Tolkien dates all the material to 1957–59. In particular he finds the text called Laws and Customs among the Eldar and Chapter 6(–7) of the Quenta Silmarilion were typed on a “new typewriter with a rather distinctive typeface” upon which the first letter that he knows to be typed by his father was dated January 1959. Both of these texts mention Ælfwine.

I have mentioned this previously, but you have have once posted and once implied that a sole example of Ælfwine was found. For my mentions see:

See pages 208–09 for the mention of Ælfwine in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar which is in the chapter with the page heading “The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)”. On page 225 occurs the notation, “So spoke Ælfwine.” On page 257 Tolkien in another later essay under the same page heading includes a footnote from Ælfwine about Míriel Sirende.

If only a sole reference had been found that would still be sufficient to show that at that time Tolkien still thought Ælfwine to be valid.

The source is in http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...2&postcount=35.

You are wrong that I misunderstood a mention of Tolkien’s publication the Lord of the Rings for a mention of his creation of it. If I have done so in anything I have posted, that is not something I have done in these posts in general. Posting inaccurately is something I try not to do, though I sometimes fail to live up to it.

The last three chapters of “The Later QUENTA SILMARILLION (I)” were written by Tolkien later than the first five chapters and after the amanuensis typescript was made. Christopher Tolkien dates the amanuensis typescript to 1958. In this later manuscript (dating to 1958 or later), there is, in chapter 6, a footnote purportedly by Ælfwine in which he mentions Bryde Míriel. There is also a footnote about Orcs attributed to Ælfwine in chapter 7. In his summary of chapter 8 Christopher Tolkien compares a similar passage in AAm to the Quenta Silmarillion and makes it clear that AAm here mentions Ælfwine, but he does not clarify whether or not the Quenta Silmarillion also does at this place.

Note that I do not discuss anywhere the earlier potions of LC 1, which Christopher dates to 1951, or discuss the contents of the later amanuensis typescript as it is simply a copy of the 1951 text.

Christopher Tolkien makes it quite clear on page 47 that he dates The Annals of Aman to “the large development and recasting of the Matter of the Elder Days that my father undertook when The Lord of the Rings was finished (see p. 3)”, and I am aware of this. But on page 3 he does not specifically mention it save when the says that The Annals of Aman (not dated at this point) were a close companion work to the Grey Annals. And he does not indicate when this “development and recasting” ended. He never, so far as I know, actually dates The Annals of Aman, save in part on page 191 when he questions which was earlier: the portions of The Annals of Aman then being worked on or the corresponding chapters 6–8 of the Quenta Silmarillion. He concludes only that he cannot decide but “that the two texts were closely contemporary.”

This dates the portions of the Annals of Aman, against which Tolkien was writing, about 1958, Of course the early sections of the Annals of Aman could be earlier, even much earlier.

The only mention of “Ælfwine” in the Annals of Aman are to a quotation about Ælfwine’s opinion of the creation of the Orcs including some words attributed to “Pengoloð”. See §127. This passage is mostly omitted in the typescript including the mention of Ælfwine and in any case this passage is probably early. Later in the Annals of Aman §172 occurs the footnote “* Marginal notes against Arien and Tilion: ‘dægdred Æ’ and ‘hyrned Æ’” in which I assume that Æ stands for Ælfwine, and so does Christopher Tolkien in his comment.

You will find portions of what I type above repetitive. I wanted to include everything because, possibly because of my previous wording, you seem to have misunderstood some of it.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

My point still stands, untouched by your carping: all mentions of Aelfwine post-LR date from the 1950s, and all but one Aelfwine document either definitely or probably date from JRRT's creative surge in 1949-53 between the LR's completion and publication.

Your point never stood. I don’t accept it and have given my reasons. Do you still not understand?

Christopher Tolkien does not definitely date any of the passages I have discussed from “The Later Quenta Silmarillion (I)” or “The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)” to before 1958. The one mention of Æ in The Annals of Aman is dated about the same time as the last three chapters of the Later Quenta Silmarillion (I), close to 1958, possibly even later.

There is no extant evidence for Aelfwine's continued existence after the 1950s, and certainly none near or subsequent in time to 1965-66, the period of the Revised Edition and the Plotz interview, where the Bilbo-vector came to the fore.

I never claimed otherwise, never. You have no reason to complain about this.

Got paranoia?

Not at all.

Sheesh, talk about a persecution complex!

No thanks.

I don't give a rat's patoot whether you use 'em or not.

That’s good.

I was and am bothered by the hoity-toity way in which you slammed Arvegil:

That was bad behavior and I apologize for it again: I apologize, for it again, Arvegil145.

I daresay Arvegil's English is much better than your Czech, Polish or Croatian.

I daresay it is.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Hello, master Jallanite!

Hello, Arvegil145.

I have long delayed the response to your insolent and pompous statement.

No problem. I was being unreasonably snarky, and I apologize.

You see...I DO use the ALT-codes when writing the names of say, FinwË or ThÉoden, but the problem is (which obviously you did not perceive) that the letters (both capital and small) Æ, Ê, Û, and a few others I CANNOT write down with ALT-codes but only with copy-paste method. If you wonder why, I will tell you a little secret - I come from a Slavic country which DOES NOT use such symbols. On my keyboard there are the following symbols: Č, Ć, Đ, Ž, Š - which do not require any bothering with ALT-codes.

That explains everything. I knew you normally posted using non US-keyboard values where appropriate.

So please, think before you write down such erroneous and ignorant comments.

Good advice.

Yours truly, a Slavic, ignorant, non-English speaking self.

One of the most intelligent persons, or perhaps the most intelligent person, I ever knew had Slavic parents. She was Alexandra Kiceniuk and contributed to my book http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-M.../dp/0905220102.

P.S. I don't really think that any of our discussions belong to this thread - they are so off-topic that I find it hilarious.

I agree. It is fun when a discussion opponent is too stubborn to admit he is wrong, but perhaps I should just not respond to William Cloud Hicklin at all.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by jallanite

On page 300 of Morgoth’s Ring (Home II) Christoper Tolkien prints a short article entitled “Note on Dating” in which he discusses his guesses on the chronology of the texts printed in “The Later QUENTA SILMARILLION (II)”. I don’t see reason in printing out the whole thing but will summarize. Christopher Tolkien dates all the material to 1957–59. In particular he finds the text called Laws and Customs among the Eldar and Chapter 6(–7) of the Quenta Silmarilion were typed on a “new typewriter with a rather distinctive typeface” upon which the first letter that he knows to be typed by his father was dated January 1959. Both of these texts mention Ælfwine.

I have mentioned this previously, but you have have once posted and once implied that a sole example of Ælfwine was found. For my mentions see:

See pages 208–09 for the mention of Ælfwine in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar which is in the chapter with the page heading “The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)”. On page 225 occurs the notation, “So spoke Ælfwine.” On page 257 Tolkien in another later essay under the same page heading includes a footnote from Ælfwine about Míriel Sirende.

If only a sole reference had been found that would still be sufficient to show that at that time Tolkien still thought Ælfwine to be valid.

The source is in http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...2&postcount=35.

You are wrong that I misunderstood a mention of Tolkien’s publication the Lord of the Rings for a mention of his creation of it. If I have done so in anything I have posted, that is not something I have done in these posts in general. Posting inaccurately is something I try not to do, though I sometimes fail to live up to it.

The last three chapters of “The Later QUENTA SILMARILLION (I)” were written by Tolkien later than the first five chapters and after the amanuensis typescript was made. Christopher Tolkien dates the amanuensis typescript to 1958. In this later manuscript (dating to 1958 or later), there is, in chapter 6, a footnote purportedly by Ælfwine in which he mentions Bryde Míriel. There is also a footnote about Orcs attributed to Ælfwine in chapter 7. In his summary of chapter 8 Christopher Tolkien compares a similar passage in AAm to the Quenta Silmarillion and makes it clear that AAm here mentions Ælfwine, but he does not clarify whether or not the Quenta Silmarillion also does at this place.

Note that I do not discuss anywhere the earlier potions of LC 1, which Christopher dates to 1951, or discuss the contents of the later amanuensis typescript as it is simply a copy of the 1951 text.

Christopher Tolkien makes it quite clear on page 47 that he dates The Annals of Aman to “the large development and recasting of the Matter of the Elder Days that my father undertook when The Lord of the Rings was finished (see p. 3)”, and I am aware of this. But on page 3 he does not specifically mention it save when the says that The Annals of Aman (not dated at this point) were a close companion work to the Grey Annals. And he does not indicate when this “development and recasting” ended. He never, so far as I know, actually dates The Annals of Aman, save in part on page 191 when he questions which was earlier: the portions of The Annals of Aman then being worked on or the corresponding chapters 6–8 of the Quenta Silmarillion. He concludes only that he cannot decide but “that the two texts were closely contemporary.”

This dates the portions of the Annals of Aman, against which Tolkien was writing, about 1958, Of course the early sections of the Annals of Aman could be earlier, even much earlier.

The only mention of “Ælfwine” in the Annals of Aman are to a quotation about Ælfwine’s opinion of the creation of the Orcs including some words attributed to “Pengoloð”. See §127. This passage is mostly omitted in the typescript including the mention of Ælfwine and in any case this passage is probably early. Later in the Annals of Aman §172 occurs the footnote “* Marginal notes against Arien and Tilion: ‘dægdred Æ’ and ‘hyrned Æ’” in which I assume that Æ stands for Ælfwine, and so does Christopher Tolkien in his comment.

You will find portions of what I type above repetitive. I wanted to include everything because, possibly because of my previous wording, you seem to have misunderstood some of it.

Your point never stood. I don’t accept it and have given my reasons. Do you still not understand?

Christopher Tolkien does not definitely date any of the passages I have discussed from “The Later Quenta Silmarillion (I)” or “The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)” to before 1958. The one mention of Æ in The Annals of Aman is dated about the same time as the last three chapters of the Later Quenta Silmarillion (I), close to 1958, possibly even later.

I never claimed otherwise, never. You have no reason to complain about this.

Not at all.

No thanks.

That’s good.

That was bad behavior and I apologize for it again: I apologize, for it again, Arvegil145.

I daresay it is.



Hello, Arvegil145.

No problem. I was being unreasonably snarky, and I apologize.

That explains everything. I knew you normally posted using non US-keyboard values where appropriate.

Good advice.

One of the most intelligent persons, or perhaps the most intelligent person, I ever knew had Slavic parents. She was Alexandra Kiceniuk and contributed to my book http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-M.../dp/0905220102.

I agree. It is fun when a discussion opponent is too stubborn to admit he is wrong, but perhaps I should just not respond to William Cloud Hicklin at all.

Hi Jallante,

I think the central point you're making is that Ungoliant ate Morgoth's unsighted means of being unfriends, forever (don't you recall that was how Galadriel spoke of Feanor). Of course, the central tenet of any cogent, re-Ungolianted reverso-Spectral Vector Director (rSVD c.f. fMRI scanning) would place unFrodo-ing ahead of re-Frodo-ing.

I mean, the point you make about Elrond not really being Orcish, but Elfish--woops--El-V-ish, by, um, let's see, it's not exactly 'half', because transgenomic theories remind us that recombinant--Illearth Stones--make Lord Foul, really hot, in comparison to reading difficult posts.

I'd rather be burned in the fires of -- I forget which ones were hotter -- not hot like Lord Foul, 'bad boi hot', but you, know, 'burning' hot. Though, I'm not quite sure what would happen in any romantic encounter with Lord Foul, 'by the light of the Illearth Stone'. I'm not sure quite at all how that would impact Canon ideas you've raised in your post.

Seriously, the thread is termed Sindarin something or other, and since reading ur post and finding my mind again, I think putting on-topic to Sindarin something or others is probably best.

Sometimes Sindarin-o-ramas are interesting, and Celebrimbor--not being Sindarin, did of course, have Sindarin friends. He must have, right? I'm sure Christopher Tolkien would enjoy and appreciate how his name is---battered-- about in your post.

Thanks for ur post