The Fellowship - doomed to fail

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

[...]Was there any circumstance under which Frodo might have completed the quest voluntarily and destroyed the Ring? Could he have been coerced or assisted?

As I stated in the doom of the ring - thread, I don't believe any person would have been able to destroy the ring willingly, or by choice. Note that Frodo wasn't even able to throw the ring into his fireplace back home. And Gandalf about knew this: "He weighed the Ring in his hand, hesitating, and forcing himself to remember all that Gandalf had told him; and then with an effort of will he made a movement, as if to cast it away - but he found that he had put it back in his pocket. Gandalf laughed grimly. 'You see? Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go, nor will to damage it. And I could not "make" you – except by force, which would break your mind.'"

So, I retain my previous stand on this matter:

Originally Posted by myself, how snooty

As I see it, the person who destroys the ring willingly, at the cracks of Mt. Doom, would have to be a person who rejects the very possibility of any kind of influence to the world around him, a person without any interest in his own fate and in the fate of others. The problem is that this 'being' would be, essentialy, an 'un-person'.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

On the other hand, given his experience with successfully persuading Bilbo to give up the Ring that perhaps Gandalf could have persuaded Frodo to destroy it...on the assumption that Gandalf intended intended to accompany Frodo to the end (which I think he did).

It's true, Bilbo parted with the ring willingly, but Gandalf took the implications of this event with a major grain of salt: "A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care - and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too. And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside. It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things."

On a side note: Gandalf seems to forget about Cirdan and his own Ring of Power.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I agree. I think faith was a major component of Gandalf's plan: he believed that good would succeed in the end, and was primarily interested in arranging the circumstances for it to do so.

Faithfulness, as opposed to a need for certainty, seems to be a general distinction in characterisation between Gandalf and Saruman, and the reason the latter failed his mission - trying to force results by his own power, and that power which he could take, rather than accepting the role of a higher power in events. It goes back to Gandalf's remark about Bilbo and Frodo being "meant" to have the Ring, "and not by its maker."

I think that this is the most helpful perspective on Gandalf's planning and way of thinking.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Leaf

On a side note: Gandalf seems to forget about Cirdan and his own Ring of Power.

That's been discussed a bit elsewhere.

[Mithadan]

Gandalf's "talent" was his ability to inspire, persuade and encourage others to act. As Leaf comments, this ability is enhanced by the Ring that Gandalf bears. Does this impact upon his ability to cajole or persuade Frodo to destroy the Ring?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Gandalf's "talent" was his ability to inspire, persuade and encourage others to act. As Leaf comments, this ability is enhanced by the Ring that Gandalf bears. Does this impact upon his ability to cajole or persuade Frodo to destroy the Ring?

I think Narya did help Gandalf to inspire. It was the Ring of Fire, and Círdan told him that with it Gandalf could "rekindle hearts" or something like that (don't have the books handy).

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Gandalf's "talent" was his ability to inspire, persuade and encourage others to act. As Leaf comments, this ability is enhanced by the Ring that Gandalf bears. Does this impact upon his ability to cajole or persuade Frodo to destroy the Ring?

Well, Gandalf himself didn't think he could convince, or persuade, Bilbo to destroy the Ring of Power:

He needed all my help, too. And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside.

I think it's fair to assume that he would expand his verdict to other Ring-bearers and that destroying the Ring would imply casting it aside. His 'talent' went only so far to help convincing Bilbo to leave the Ring behind for Frodo, which is a huge success in that matter in the first place.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

he believed that good would succeed in the end

I don't agree so much with this.

I think Gandalf believed that Sauron could triumph, but even in those dire circumstances he believed there was a correct way to go about doing things that ultimately involved putting the situation in the hands of Eru regardless of outcome.

Originally Posted by Leaf

As I see it, the person who destroys the ring willingly, at the cracks of Mt. Doom, would have to be a person who rejects the very possibility of any kind of influence to the world around him, a person without any interest in his own fate and in the fate of others. The problem is that this 'being' would be, essentialy, an 'un-person'.

This too is paradoxical as the un-person would still have to have an impulse to destroy the Ring, which (even if the un-person viewed the Ring as a worthless bauble) would still "influence" the un-person's surroundings, even if only to the extent that the un-person was no longer holding the Ring.

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This too is paradoxical as the un-person would still have to have an impulse to destroy the Ring, which (even if the un-person viewed the Ring as a worthless bauble) would still "influence" the un-person's surroundings, even if only to the extent that the un-person was no longer holding the Ring.

This is true. That's because the very notion of (free) will, or intention, is entwined with the concept of what defines a person. I suppose some kind of souless machinery could have done the deed. But then again Gandalf would have to build and program a Robo-Frodo substitute.

As it stands it was destroyed by "accident", and not by choice.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Leaf

I suppose some kind of souless machinery could have done the deed.

Maybe Tolkien dropped the ball on that.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I don't agree so much with this.

I think Gandalf believed that Sauron could triumph, but even in those dire circumstances he believed there was a correct way to go about doing things that ultimately involved putting the situation in the hands of Eru regardless of outcome.

What I should have said was that Gandalf may have believed that "good" needed to be given the best possible opportunity to transpire, but that there were also limits on what he could guarantee, and that he had to accept that if his plan was to succeed, it would involve having faith that the higher power would be involved.

[Galadriel55]

I think that rationally, Gandalf knew that there was very little chance of anyone from the Fellowship even getting to Sammath Naur, forget about destroying the Ring. At the same time, though, he might have had a feeling that at a certain point something would happen which was statistically improbable and unpredictable that would turn things around. Part of it was a faith and trust in Eru, but part of it was just accepting that even without external intervention, you can't control all circumstances but you have to do your best. I think the last part is the most important - regardless of what Gandalf could or could not foresee, he knew he had to try. As another lovely book says, "If you try and lose then it isn't your fault. But if you don't try and we lose, then it's all your fault." Gandalf just went with the best of his options. And it really wouldn't be his, or Frodo's, or anybody's fault if things turned out differently. They all tried their best, in their own way. That was as far and as much as Gandalf would really need to see to make the choice.