The Fellowship - doomed to fail

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

he believed that good would succeed in the end

I don't agree so much with this.

I think Gandalf believed that Sauron could triumph, but even in those dire circumstances he believed there was a correct way to go about doing things that ultimately involved putting the situation in the hands of Eru regardless of outcome.

Originally Posted by Leaf

As I see it, the person who destroys the ring willingly, at the cracks of Mt. Doom, would have to be a person who rejects the very possibility of any kind of influence to the world around him, a person without any interest in his own fate and in the fate of others. The problem is that this 'being' would be, essentialy, an 'un-person'.

This too is paradoxical as the un-person would still have to have an impulse to destroy the Ring, which (even if the un-person viewed the Ring as a worthless bauble) would still "influence" the un-person's surroundings, even if only to the extent that the un-person was no longer holding the Ring.

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This too is paradoxical as the un-person would still have to have an impulse to destroy the Ring, which (even if the un-person viewed the Ring as a worthless bauble) would still "influence" the un-person's surroundings, even if only to the extent that the un-person was no longer holding the Ring.

This is true. That's because the very notion of (free) will, or intention, is entwined with the concept of what defines a person. I suppose some kind of souless machinery could have done the deed. But then again Gandalf would have to build and program a Robo-Frodo substitute.

As it stands it was destroyed by "accident", and not by choice.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Leaf

I suppose some kind of souless machinery could have done the deed.

Maybe Tolkien dropped the ball on that.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I don't agree so much with this.

I think Gandalf believed that Sauron could triumph, but even in those dire circumstances he believed there was a correct way to go about doing things that ultimately involved putting the situation in the hands of Eru regardless of outcome.

What I should have said was that Gandalf may have believed that "good" needed to be given the best possible opportunity to transpire, but that there were also limits on what he could guarantee, and that he had to accept that if his plan was to succeed, it would involve having faith that the higher power would be involved.

[Galadriel55]

I think that rationally, Gandalf knew that there was very little chance of anyone from the Fellowship even getting to Sammath Naur, forget about destroying the Ring. At the same time, though, he might have had a feeling that at a certain point something would happen which was statistically improbable and unpredictable that would turn things around. Part of it was a faith and trust in Eru, but part of it was just accepting that even without external intervention, you can't control all circumstances but you have to do your best. I think the last part is the most important - regardless of what Gandalf could or could not foresee, he knew he had to try. As another lovely book says, "If you try and lose then it isn't your fault. But if you don't try and we lose, then it's all your fault." Gandalf just went with the best of his options. And it really wouldn't be his, or Frodo's, or anybody's fault if things turned out differently. They all tried their best, in their own way. That was as far and as much as Gandalf would really need to see to make the choice.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Narya: besides the question of Narya's strength relative to the Master Ring generally, there is also

"He was come to the heart of the Realm of Sauron and the forges of his ancient might, greatest in Middle-earth; all other powers were here subdued."

(the reference is to the phial of Galadriel giving no light at the Sammath Naur)

[Mithadan]

To make a confession, this thread was not just inspired by my prior post in the Doom of the Ring thread (which is a real expression of my curiosity) but also by something that I stumbled upon while looking for something else. Letters By Tolkien has an abysmally deficient index. If you are looking for a specific subject regarding Frodo, for example, you are limited to looking for references for Frodo; there are no more detailed "key words." In this case, I was looking for a reference that I seemed to recall about Frodo being "chosen" for the Quest. I never found it (actually stopped looking) and instead came upon this regarding Frodo:

"'Sacrificial' situations, I should call them: sc. positions in which the 'good' of the world depends on the behavior of an individual in circumstances which demand of him suffering and endurance far beyond the normal - even, it may happen (or seem, humanly speaking), demand a strength of body and mind which he does not possess; he is in a sense DOOMED TO FAILURE, doomed to fall to temptation or be broken by pressure against his 'will'...

Letter No. 181, emphasis added.

Tolkien refers to Frodo's position at the end, noting that even in Bag End he had been unwilling to harm the Ring, as "an apparently complete trap: a person of greater native power could probably never have resisted the Ring's lure to power so long; a person of less power could not hope to resist it in the final decision."

Regarding the Fellowship, he says that the quest "was bound to fail as a piece of the world-plan, and was also bound to end in disaster..."

So the final scene at Sammath Naur was, to Tolkien, "mechanically, morally, and psychologically credible".

I agree with others above that Gandalf had no idea what might happen at the end of the day, should the Fellowship or some fragment of it reach the Cracks of Doom. Surely he knew that Frodo could not destroy the Ring on his own. Surely he knew that Sam would not be able to act against his own Master. Some outside force was needed to accomplish the impossible; the destruction of the Ring. Here, Gollum was that force. If Gandalf, Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas or Gimli, the "heroes" had been there, could any of them have achieved what Gollum, by accident, curse or fate, accomplished? Tolkien's answer appears to be no.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

If Gandalf, Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas or Gimli, the "heroes" had been there, could any of them have achieved what Gollum, by accident, curse or fate, accomplished? Tolkien's answer appears to be no.

By accident, maybe.

But if Elrond and Cirdan were not willing to push Isildur into the Crack of Doom and save everybody a lot of trouble, it can be presumed that none of the Fellowship would have been willing to do the same thing.

[Faramir Jones]

When I first read LotR I had, and still have now, some sympathy for Denethor II's anger at Gandalf and his son for allowing Frodo and Sam go off alone into Mordor.

If you look at it, even though it was clear from what was said at the Council that the only way to destroy the Ring was by sending it to and throwing it into the Crack of Doom, there was no clear plan on how to carry this out. Even after the Company left Rivendell, Gandalf was vague about what was to happen after they got over the Misty Mountains.

For that reason, I agree with what Mithadan and others said that

Gandalf had no idea what might happen at the end of the day, should the Fellowship or some fragment of it reach the Cracks of Doom. Surely he knew that Frodo could not destroy the Ring on his own. Surely he knew that Sam would not be able to act against his own Master. Some outside force was needed to accomplish the impossible; the destruction of the Ring. Here, Gollum was that force.

Gandalf was clear that Gollum would have some part to play in dealing with the Ring, which happened. He was able to convince Frodo to let him live, and Frodo to convince Sam and Faramir to do the same.

That said, I can still understand Denethor's anger, although the problem is that he himself didn't have an alternative plan other than to keep the ring safe in Minas Tirith, not using it until things were really desperate...