Gandalf’s Possible Inaccuracy in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I had never given this aspect of the Rings much thought before.

What does this say about the inherent malign nature of the rings that when in the hands of Men and Dwarves they had such pronounced negative impacts, especially in the case of men?

Could the prolonging of life granted by the Nine in particular have something to do with the Elvish desire, and power put into the rings, to slow the effects of time?

Or were the negative aspects of the rings all rooted in the existence of the One Ring?

I think it was perhaps a mitigating of the fading effecting Elves that Felagund said was already apparent in the First Age that had such an effect on mortals. The Rings were meant to stay time, perhaps not only externally, I.e. Rivendell.

Rings = (1) Stay the fading where the spirit eats up the body, & (2) the effects of time in Middle-earth itself.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I think it was perhaps a mitigating of the fading effecting Elves that Felagund said was already apparent in the First Age that had such an effect on mortals. The Rings were meant to stay time, perhaps not only externally, I.e. Rivendell.

Rings = (1) Stay the fading where the spirit eats up the body, & (2) the effects of time in Middle-earth itself.

That is exactly my position. It isn’t obvious from the readers’ point of view, is it? Only upon reflection does it become clear. As for staying time, I don’t that happens. When Sam wonders about the new moon as they leave Lórien, Legolas says, “time does not tarry ever, but change and growth is not in all things and places alike.” To which Aragorn adds that in Lórien, “time flowed swiftly by us, as for the Elves.” Tolkien called the Elves “embalmers”, a result of their desire to keep things as they are. The Rings, he says, were an attempt to achieve this, and by offering them the means to do it, Sauron ensnared them.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

What does this say about the inherent malign nature of the rings that when in the hands of Men and Dwarves they had such pronounced negative impacts, especially in the case of men?

For Elves, I think most of what we regard as “negative effects” were very much like handling a machine – and I use that word in all its meaning – that was both very useful and very dangerous. I wouldn’t want to take on a remodeling or building project without a power saw. If a child had that power saw, I’d make haste to get it from him as fast as possible! Men just were not able to handle the effects, not even a Númenórean prince. Remember what Gandalf told Frodo:

The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles – yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Could the prolonging of life granted by the Nine in particular have something to do with the Elvish desire, and power put into the rings, to slow the effects of time?

Yes, that’s what I believe. I think it also slowed progress around them: once the Rings were rendered powerless, the Elves left for good, and Men began a long process of “’progress’, as it is called”, as Tolkien put it.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Or were the negative aspects of the rings all rooted in the existence of the One Ring?

For the Three, the negative aspects were rooted in the existence of the One. For the Seven and Nine, I don’t know: Sauron had somehow “tainted” them.

One of the prime features of the One Ring was that it allowed Sauron to “eavesdrop” on the minds of the wearers of the other Great Rings. (I don’t think that was true for the lesser rings, but we never see any of those.) Men were completely overwhelmed by Sauron’s will, so that the Nazgûl could no longer resist it. Returning to Gandalf’s conversation with Frodo,

A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later – later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last – sooner or later the dark power will devour him.

So even a good person will be overthrown. I don’t know if that’s inherent without Sauron’s invading the wearer’s mind, but Tolkien says the Nine were somehow “tainted” by him. I also think Gandalf had a specific person in mind: the Lord of the Nazgûl. In all probability he was a senior member of the House of Elros, probably a member of the Royal Council of Númenor, and quite possibly – likely, in my view – vice-regent in Umbar sometime after 1800 S.A. His counsels and influence can be clearly seen in the response of Tar-Atanamir to the embassy send by the Valar to his court. He and the other two Númenóreans were “the Shadow [that] fell on Númenor.”

Originally Posted by Zigûr

…the Seven and the Nine were only delineated as such through the distribution of Sauron; the Elves never intended their use by Men or Dwarves at all. Perhaps they believed that sixteen Great Rings was a useful number for their plans of preserving and beautifying Middle-earth.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

…they were probably convinced to produce this number of Rings by Sauron, who had probably already calculated how many Rings he would need to most effectively subjugate the world, and he told them some convenient lie for why sixteen was a good number. That being said, he reckoned without the Three, so perhaps before he seized the Great Rings the distribution plan was somewhat different, because presumably he would have needed to give a few of the Seven-and-Nine to Elves.

I am unsure of this. I suspect Sauron only began giving them out to Dwarves and Men after Durin III received his from Celebrimbor. I believe the Rings of Power were an attempt by Sauron to rule the Eldar in Middle-earth by controlling their leaders. In the middle of the Second Age, there were still a lot of Eldar in Middle-earth. Gil-galad, Círdan, Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, and Celebrimbor were only a few of their leaders, though they were probably the greatest. All sixteen of the Great Rings Sauron tainted seem to have had some power of rulership, authority, wealth – all things that would have been useful to Sauron in subjugating the Elves. You may be absolutely correct, Zigûr, but I think corrupting Men was an afterthought, a fall-back position for Sauron when his original intention was thwarted by Tar-Minastir and the Númenóreans. The Rings only inflamed greed and pride in the Dwarves, helpful to Sauron’s machinations, but not sufficient for him to control them.

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

[T]he talk about the Elves being secretive about the Rings isn't very convincing, if you think about it. Not if Sauron truly did give three of the Nine to Númenóreans. The fact that Sauron had magical rings and once given them to various people must have been known. And Sauron wearing some ring in Númenor could easily have triggered the greed of the One.

Tolkien tells us Ar-Pharazôn knew nothing of the One Ring. Perhaps Pharazôn simply did not recognize it for what it was; maybe he didn’t even see it: Sam never saw Galadriel’s Ring, and Frodo could see it only after his vision of Sauron in the Mirror. Though Zigûr has already cited the passage, I think it bears repeating,

Originally Posted by Zigûr

In Letter 211, however, Professor Tolkien does state that "I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. In any case Ar-Pharazôn was not in communication with them."

That means that when the Númenórean expeditionary force arrive in 1700 S.A., Tar-Minastir’s fleet and soldiers did not know why Sauron was attacking Gil-galad: they only knew he was, and in honor of their ancient alliance with the Eldar of Beleriand, they fought beside their ancient friends and allies.

If you think about it, it makes perfectly good sense. How else could Sauron ensnare three Númenórean noblemen (for they were surely commanders in Middle-earth) with Great Rings? Had they known about the Rings, they’d have all suspected a trap when some rich, handsome, brilliant fellow in Middle-earth came bearing gifts, a mysterious salesmen with magic trinkets.

As for the One Ring’s arousing passion to seize it in Númenor, I suspect you have not thought through the position. The One Ring belonged to Sauron: it was his, and his alone. Its power of arousing jealously was part of its “programming”. Nor Sam, nor Merry, nor Pippin ever felt any urge to take the Ring from Frodo. Boromir did: but Boromir was useful to the Ring! He would have exposed its whereabouts to Sauron, who’d eventually have found him and relieved him of it – to Sauron’s advantage!; and moreover, Boromir was a much greater person than Frodo. Faramir was tempted, but resisted the temptation in humility and obedience to his position as Heir of the Steward rather than as a King. (If you remember, Frodo and Sam told Faramir that the Heir of Isildur was coming to Minas Tirith.) Aragorn, if he was tempted at all, resisted it, too.

But to some people, Frodo actually offered the Ring! He urged it upon Gandalf; he gave it to Bombadil without hesitation; he jumped up in alarm when Elrond revealed that Aragorn was Isildur’s Heir, and though he didn’t offer it outright, expected Aragorn to take it; and he offered it to Galadriel. All of these people were far greater persons in power and ability than Frodo. The Ring itself was looking for a powerful keeper. In the case of Sméagol’s murder of Déagol, perhaps Sméagol was the “greater” of the two; but in any case, he seems the more wicked: he did not hesitate to kill his friend.

A strong case can be made that the Dúnedain only found out about the Rings of Power when Sauron attacked the new Kingdom of Gondor at the end of the Second Age, and Elendil forged the Last Alliance with Gil-galad. Only then, I think, did the Númenóreans learn the truth, and even then, not all of it. If Ar-Pharazôn knew nothing of the One Ring, Tar-Minastir did not, either. Elendil had to ask, How it is possible that Sauron was not destroyed in the Ruin of Númenor, Maia though he was? Gil-galad, Elrond, and Círdan told Elendil and Isildur (and eventually Anárion) only in desperation so that their allies could finally understand what they were up against.

This brings us to the famous Ring-rhyme.

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all. One Ring to find them
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

The Ring-rhyme is surely a rhyme of lore out of Arnor! That it was well-known among the Elves is how Gandalf described it to Frodo; but I don’t think the Elves needed a rhyme of lore to remember the details. Nor were these particular rhymes of lore widespread among the Dúnedain of Arnor. They were likely rhymes taught to the royal household and nobles so that “state secrets” were reliably transmitted from generation to generation. The palantíri, the subject of another rhyme of lore, were secret even before Elendil left Númenor: otherwise, Ar-Pharazôn would have seized them. As for the Ring-rhyme, it might have been well-known among the rulers of the Eldar, but it’s not likely IMO the Elves sitting in the trees in Rivendell teasing Bilbo and Dwarves knew it.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I'm also not convinced how well Sauron's identity was known, such that people could realise the following people were actually the same person:
1. The person who had waged a great war against Eregion
2. The person who had set himself up as the 'King of Men' in Middle-earth, with his chief stronghold in Mordor
3. The person who had given Rings to Men and Dwarves (they might not have even known at the time that anyone other than them had Rings; we don't know the circumstances in which Sauron distributed them. Did he just show up one day or did he do it publicly?)
4. The Lieutenant of Morgoth who had suspiciously disappeared at the end of the First Age.

As soon as Sauron spoke the spell (the two lines embedded in the Ring-rhyme) and put on the One Ring, Celebrimbor and the other smiths “heard” the spell. I think at that point they knew who he was. Sauron never hid who he was in Mordor, and the Elves knew he was Morgoth’s lieutenant. The Elves and Númenóreans knew exactly who Sauron was after he completed the One Ring about 1600 S.A.

But think you are absolutely correct about the person who had given Rings to Men and Dwarves. For the Dwarves, Sauron probably cozened them first, in disguise (as he done as Annatar) offering them Rings that likely improved skills in their arts, the same skills the Noldor valued: smithying, stonework, and other crafts. Perhaps the fact that there were Seven Rings and Seven Houses of Dwarves, coupled with Celebrimbor’s giving the first of them to Durin, suggested this to Sauron. There do not seem to have been nine houses of Men, but he used the Nine to ensnare them. Some Men worshipped Sauron: they would take Rings from him in his own persona. The three Númenóreans must have met him wearing some other guise.

[Gothmog, LoB]

@Zigûr & Alcuin:

I've just rechecked the context of letter #211, and it actually did lead to a revision of LotR on the whole O/A discrepancy that is discussed earlier.

Earlier Akallabêth versions do not include the lines about Sauron taking up the Great Ring, so it would make sense to assume Tolkien's thoughts on the whole questions raised there might also have affected his later rewriting of The Akallabêth.

After all, that letter was written in 1958.

Anyway, in universe Ar-Pharazôn might not have known about the One Ring but once Tolkien had decided that three Nazgûl were going to be powerful Númenóreans it would be very difficult to imagine the Kings of Númenor never getting information about the Rings of Power - or rather that Sauron was giving away such Rings.

I don't think Gil-galad and the Elves told Minastir and his people what exactly was going on but they must have known that some old servant of Morgoth's had returned, and so on.
And once the Númenóreans had established their permanent colonies further down south they would also have clashed with Sauron occasionally.

We don't know where the dwarves and men lived who received the Seven and Nine, so the tale about Sauron giving them away could easily have reached the ears of the Númenóreans. And the effects the Rings had on the three Númenóreans who became Nazgûl must have not escaped the others. Perhaps they didn't know what was going on, perhaps they never found out, but they would eventually have learned that Ring-wraiths existed in Middle-earth, and that should have enabled them to connect the dots.

Even if not, the question is whether Sauron would have known and risked losing the Ring to Ar-Pharazôn? I mean, the man could have searched him, could even have forced him to undress and hand him all valuables. Sauron's plan was based on winning the trust of the Númenóreans and he most certainly had to spring to quite a few hoops before he won the trust of the King.

And I simply find the idea that he would have taken the Ring with him under such circumstances very unlikely indeed. Especially in light of the quotes from the actual texts.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Earlier Akallabêth versions do not include the lines about Sauron taking up the Great Ring, so it would make sense to assume Tolkien's thoughts on the whole questions raised there might also have affected his later rewriting of The Akallabêth.

After all, that letter was written in 1958.

Except that, as near as I can make out from the rather scattergun chapter on Akallabeth in HME XII, that line goes back to the first version of the work (under that title); at least there's no mention in the notes of the line being a later emendation, and versions A and B were in existence prior to 1958 (indeed prior to the publication of LR).

The late rewriting of Ak was chiefly concerned with the Gimilkhad/Pharazon/Miriel affair, an interesting parallel to the creation in the same time frame of the Finwe/Miriel/Indis business (note the repeated name).

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

For the Three, the negative aspects were rooted in the existence of the One. For the Seven and Nine, I don’t know: Sauron had somehow “tainted” them.

If the existence of the One was enough to render the Rings harmful to the Elves, that would probably be enough to render the other Rings corrupt given the lesser spiritual strength of humans and dwarves.

[Galin]

"... there he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur..."

Some have argued that this need not mean Sauron had left the One behind in Middle-earth, citing one definition according to the Oxford English Dictionary...

c. With special obj., implying a purpose of using in some way: as, to take up one's pen, to proceed or begin to write; to take up a book (i.e. with the purpose to read); to take up the (or one's) cross (see CROSS n. 4, 10): to take up ARMS, [etc.]

Perhaps if the emphasis is on "in Barad-dur" then the message might be that Sauron intends to rebuild a body and again mess with Eraidor and Rhovanion and so on, using his great ring, now that Numenor is no more.

Though Sauron had the One in Numenor as well... according to a letter anyway.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

Perhaps if the emphasis is on "in Barad-dur" then the message might be that Sauron intends to rebuild a body and again mess with Eraidor and Rhovanion and so on, using his great ring, now that Numenor is no more.

Though Sauron had the One in Numenor as well... according to a letter anyway.

Or, maybe even "ring" as in "fortress", a usage not unknown in the books. Not necessarily probable mind, but just another thought.

[Alcuin]

No doubt the Númenóreans knew who and what kind of creature Sauron was; but it still must have come as quite a shock to them when he reformed a physical body (thanks in part to the Ring) following the ruin of Númenor. They probably thought he was “dead”, banished from the world.

Thinking on this, it’s easy to understand why Gil-galad and the Elves told Elendil and the Dúnedain for the first time about the Rings of Power. The Númenóreans had already encountered the Nazgûl in their wars against Sauron. (Cf. Appendix B for S.A. 2251: “… About this time the Nazgûl … first appear.”) Unaware of the Rings, they did not recognize these creatures for what they were, though they must have understood they were Men ruined in some way by Sauron. But in S.A. 3429, 129 years after the downfall of Númenor, when Sauron attacked, Elendil and his sons must have put some direct questions to Gil-galad and the Eldar: How could Sauron re-embody? the Dúnedain must have wondered. For the first time they received direct answers.

Perhaps an incident from the tale of Beren and Lúthien, when Lúthien threatened to have Huan the Hound strip Sauron of his form unless he yielded her Tol Sirion, explains some of his motivation for making the Ring. As long as the Ring existed, Sauron could not be permanently disembodied, nor his power scattered; but of course, once the Ring was destroyed, both of these impediments became permanent.

As an aside, I don’t think Ar-Pharazôn ever had any chance of taking the One Ring from Sauron. I don’t think could Ar-Pharazôn even see it – remember that neither Sam nor Frodo could see Galadriel’s ring until Frodo saw Sauron in the Mirror. Sauron’s servants were terrified of the Númenóreans and, despite their servile fear of Sauron, deserted him. Ar-Pharazôn took him hostage back to Númenor: this delighted Sauron: otherwise, he’d never have been able to get there. He had a rather overwhelming personality, and soon cozened Ar-Pharazôn.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I don’t think could Ar-Pharazôn even see it – remember that neither Sam nor Frodo could see Galadriel’s ring until Frodo saw Sauron in the Mirror. Sauron’s servants were terrified of the Númenóreans and, despite their servile fear of Sauron, deserted him. Ar-Pharazôn took him hostage back to Númenor: this delighted Sauron: otherwise, he’d never have been able to get there. He had a rather overwhelming personality, and soon cozened Ar-Pharazôn.

I thought of this too, but Isildur had to have been able to see the Ring to have a reason to cut off Sauron's finger to seize it. That being said, if it was invisible, we might assume that it became visible again as his body died.

Originally Posted by Galin

"... there he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur..."

Some have argued that this need not mean Sauron had left the One behind in Middle-earth

An interesting way of looking at it, especially considering Professor Tolkien's typical specificity of language; it is possible that if he meant "took up" to mean "put on", he would have said "put on".
There's also the simple fact that between bodies he could not "take up" the Ring in any sense, to wear it or wield it.
It's possible that late in his time in Númenor Sauron had had little current use for the Ring (almost as Gandalf tells us Gollum did after long centuries in his cave) and had not actively been "using" it.

It's difficult, in my opinion; perhaps he did not bring it with him to Númenor, but it seems to me that he would have been sore pressed to guarantee its safety if he left it behind, unless perhaps the Nazgûl took it with them when they (presumably) went into hiding after they (deliberately) abandoned Sauron at the coming of the Númenóreans. One assumes he could not have simply left it behind in Barad-dûr; we have no information that Ar-Pharazôn's men went to Mordor, let alone searched Sauron's tower, but if so much of Middle-earth fell under the sway of Númenor at that time it's hard to imagine they would have left their defeated enemy's "capital" alone.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

(...) I don’t think could Ar-Pharazôn even see it – remember that neither Sam nor Frodo could see Galadriel’s ring until Frodo saw Sauron in the Mirror.

I interpret this scene differently: Galadriel makes a gesture here with her hands (which arguably draws attention to them), and Earendil's light glanced upon her ring. Frodo did not suddenly see Nenya, but he gazed at the ring with awe "... for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood."

He understood. Later Sam says that he too saw something, the light, but he interpreted it to be a star through Galadriel's fingers. Sam did not understand, even though Galadriel had already said, aloud, that one of the Three is in Lorien, upon her finger. It might be that he literally didn't see Nenya, but if we take in Sam's experience with the mirror, he was arguably shaken and distracted: "Sam sat on the ground and put his head in his hands. "I wish I had never come here, and I don't want to see no more magic," he said and fell silent."

Sam actually says he doesn't want to "see no more magic", and after the Lady asks him about her Ring he appears to still be thinking about the gaffer and the Shire. Galadriel had said to Frodo: "And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring?" she asked turning to Sam." Frodo didn't just see a ring, he understood it was one of the Three. As Galadriel says, his sight had grown keener. Again I think Sam saw the same light but did not recognize or understand, his worry about the Shire and his gaffer still holding much of his attention.

Of course that's just my interpretation, but I also "see" no great reason for the Three to be invisible. So far