Gandalf’s Possible Inaccuracy in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past” - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Galin · 06-15-2016, 04:21 PM

"... there he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur..."

Some have argued that this need not mean Sauron had left the One behind in Middle-earth, citing one definition according to the Oxford English Dictionary...

Quote:

c. With special obj., implying a purpose of using in some way: as, to take up one's pen, to proceed or begin to write; to take up a book (i.e. with the purpose to read); to take up the (or one's) cross (see CROSS n. 4, 10): to take up ARMS, [etc.]

Perhaps if the emphasis is on "in Barad-dur" then the message might be that Sauron intends to rebuild a body and again mess with Eraidor and Rhovanion and so on, using his great ring, now that Numenor is no more.

Though Sauron had the One in Numenor as well... according to a letter anyway.

Inziladun · 06-15-2016, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galin

Perhaps if the emphasis is on "in Barad-dur" then the message might be that Sauron intends to rebuild a body and again mess with Eraidor and Rhovanion and so on, using his great ring, now that Numenor is no more.

Though Sauron had the One in Numenor as well... according to a letter anyway.

Or, maybe even "ring" as in "fortress", a usage not unknown in the books. Not necessarily probable mind, but just another thought.

Alcuin · 06-15-2016, 09:40 PM

No doubt the Númenóreans knew who and what kind of creature Sauron was; but it still must have come as quite a shock to them when he reformed a physical body (thanks in part to the Ring) following the ruin of Númenor. They probably thought he was “dead”, banished from the world.

Thinking on this, it’s easy to understand why Gil-galad and the Elves told Elendil and the Dúnedain for the first time about the Rings of Power. The Númenóreans had already encountered the Nazgûl in their wars against Sauron. (Cf. Appendix B for S.A. 2251: “… About this time the Nazgûl … first appear.”) Unaware of the Rings, they did not recognize these creatures for what they were, though they must have understood they were Men ruined in some way by Sauron. But in S.A. 3429, 129 years after the downfall of Númenor, when Sauron attacked, Elendil and his sons must have put some direct questions to Gil-galad and the Eldar: How could Sauron re-embody? the Dúnedain must have wondered. For the first time they received direct answers.

Perhaps an incident from the tale of Beren and Lúthien, when Lúthien threatened to have Huan the Hound strip Sauron of his form unless he yielded her Tol Sirion, explains some of his motivation for making the Ring. As long as the Ring existed, Sauron could not be permanently disembodied, nor his power scattered; but of course, once the Ring was destroyed, both of these impediments became permanent.

As an aside, I don’t think Ar-Pharazôn ever had any chance of taking the One Ring from Sauron. I don’t think could Ar-Pharazôn even see it – remember that neither Sam nor Frodo could see Galadriel’s ring until Frodo saw Sauron in the Mirror. Sauron’s servants were terrified of the Númenóreans and, despite their servile fear of Sauron, deserted him. Ar-Pharazôn took him hostage back to Númenor: this delighted Sauron: otherwise, he’d never have been able to get there. He had a rather overwhelming personality, and soon cozened Ar-Pharazôn.

Zigûr · 06-15-2016, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I don’t think could Ar-Pharazôn even see it – remember that neither Sam nor Frodo could see Galadriel’s ring until Frodo saw Sauron in the Mirror. Sauron’s servants were terrified of the Númenóreans and, despite their servile fear of Sauron, deserted him. Ar-Pharazôn took him hostage back to Númenor: this delighted Sauron: otherwise, he’d never have been able to get there. He had a rather overwhelming personality, and soon cozened Ar-Pharazôn.

I thought of this too, but Isildur had to have been able to see the Ring to have a reason to cut off Sauron's finger to seize it. That being said, if it was invisible, we might assume that it became visible again as his body died.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galin

"... there he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur..."

Some have argued that this need not mean Sauron had left the One behind in Middle-earth

An interesting way of looking at it, especially considering Professor Tolkien's typical specificity of language; it is possible that if he meant "took up" to mean "put on", he would have said "put on".
There's also the simple fact that between bodies he could not "take up" the Ring in any sense, to wear it or wield it.
It's possible that late in his time in Númenor Sauron had had little current use for the Ring (almost as Gandalf tells us Gollum did after long centuries in his cave) and had not actively been "using" it.

It's difficult, in my opinion; perhaps he did not bring it with him to Númenor, but it seems to me that he would have been sore pressed to guarantee its safety if he left it behind, unless perhaps the Nazgûl took it with them when they (presumably) went into hiding after they (deliberately) abandoned Sauron at the coming of the Númenóreans. One assumes he could not have simply left it behind in Barad-dûr; we have no information that Ar-Pharazôn's men went to Mordor, let alone searched Sauron's tower, but if so much of Middle-earth fell under the sway of Númenor at that time it's hard to imagine they would have left their defeated enemy's "capital" alone.

Galin · 06-16-2016, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alcuin

(...) I don’t think could Ar-Pharazôn even see it – remember that neither Sam nor Frodo could see Galadriel’s ring until Frodo saw Sauron in the Mirror.

I interpret this scene differently: Galadriel makes a gesture here with her hands (which arguably draws attention to them), and Earendil's light glanced upon her ring. Frodo did not suddenly see Nenya, but he gazed at the ring with awe "... for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood."

He understood. Later Sam says that he too saw something, the light, but he interpreted it to be a star through Galadriel's fingers. Sam did not understand, even though Galadriel had already said, aloud, that one of the Three is in Lorien, upon her finger. It might be that he literally didn't see Nenya, but if we take in Sam's experience with the mirror, he was arguably shaken and distracted: "Sam sat on the ground and put his head in his hands. "I wish I had never come here, and I don't want to see no more magic," he said and fell silent."

Sam actually says he doesn't want to "see no more magic", and after the Lady asks him about her Ring he appears to still be thinking about the gaffer and the Shire. Galadriel had said to Frodo: "And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring?" she asked turning to Sam." Frodo didn't just see a ring, he understood it was one of the Three. As Galadriel says, his sight had grown keener. Again I think Sam saw the same light but did not recognize or understand, his worry about the Shire and his gaffer still holding much of his attention.

Of course that's just my interpretation, but I also "see" no great reason for the Three to be invisible. So far

Galin · 06-16-2016, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galin

Frodo did not suddenly see Nenya, but he gazed at the ring with awe "... for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood."

For clarity, Frodo may have suddenly seen a ring upon Galadriel's finger at this point too, but in the sense of noticing it, due to her gesture and so on. In other words, Nenya wasn't necessarily invisible, but after he saw it he suddenly understood.

Kuruharan · 06-16-2016, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galin

For clarity, Frodo may have suddenly seen a ring upon Galadriel's finger at this point too, but in the sense of noticing it, due to her gesture and so on. In other words, Nenya wasn't necessarily invisible, but after he saw it he suddenly understood.

I don't recall Gandalf or Elrond ever being described with a noticeable ring. Elrond, I grant, was never described in great physical detail, however, Gandalf was. If the ring was visible either Gandalf didn't wear it on his finger or it was somehow shrouded...or Tolkien deliberately chose not to describe it.

Galin · 06-16-2016, 04:55 PM

In The Grey Havens (second edition version here) the story tells: "As he turned and came towards them Frodo saw that Gandalf now wore openly on his hand the Third Ring, Narya the Great, and the stone upon it was red as fire."

Again, some might interpret this to mean Narya was now visible. Not me though... not yet anyway (well, I mean it was visible anyway). Plenty of folks wear rings in the Primary World of course... if you've got a magic ring and you want to keep it secret you might not want to wear it openly in front of some (those who might recognize it as a special thing)... but others will just see a ring.

... if they even notice such things that is.

Gothmog, LoB · 06-17-2016, 10:03 AM

Well, I just don't buy the idea that Sauron did take the One to Númenor. Tolkien's reasoning is pretty flawed in the letter, and he clearly did not consult what he had written in The Akallabêth before or he would have stumbled on those lines claiming that Sauron put the Great Ring up again.

I mean, in context this is pretty clear. We don't have any lines mentioning Sauron leaving the One behind but if he took the One back from Númenor then he wouldn't have had no reason to pick it up somewhere - which he does in the text, in spirit form in his tower.

@Alcuin:

The problem with the reasoning there is that we have to jump through a lot of hoops to believe that no knowledge about the Rings of Power ever came to Númenor.

1. We know that there was contact between the Númenóreans and Lindon, and they eventually came to their aid. While it would make in hindsight sense for the Elves to not talk about the Rings back then Gil-galad could easily have talked about them. Even more so if he wanted to convince Telperien or Minastir to come to their aid.

2. Three great Númenóreans became Nazgûl. We don't know how or when exactly, nor who those guys were in life but if such a transformation did occur in Númenor then the Kings would have learned about that.

3. More importantly they would later also clashed with the Nazgûl on occasion in their wars in Middle-earth.

Tolkien himself fails to provide us with the possibility that the One might have been invisible, making it unlikely that this was the case. His scenario is that Ar-Pharazôn did not recognize the One as being important.

The idea that the One could be hidden the same way the Three obviously were doesn't feel right to me. It is an instrument of enormous power, it *wants* to be seen and the power its wearer gains through it would be visible, too. I doubt that a Sauron wearing the Ring could successfully fool the Númenóreans into believing that he was weak and so on. The Ring would have made Sauron appear powerful and regal, like the Maia he was, and that would have been more of an obstacle than a help.

Whether the Three can be made invisible or not is another matter, but one we don't have to decide. Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond should all have the power to conceal such an item without using its power but rather other innate powers they do have.

The idea that characters just don't recognize any visible rings for what they are makes no sense because Saruman kept Gandalf imprisoned at Orthanc. If he can take his staff from him he should also be able to Narya from him but he didn't. One assumes that Gandalf was indeed somehow able to conceal the Ring from Saruman.

This example would suggests that perhaps there was some 'invisibility spell' on the Three, or that the Three indeed gave their wearers the ability to keep them hidden. IF Gandalf tried to hide Narya with some Maia tricks from Saruman one assumes he would have seen through that.

But in the case of the One I don't think invisibility of the Ring itself was an option.

06-15-2016, 09:40 PM	#3
Alcuin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Nurn Posts: 73	No doubt the Númenóreans knew who and what kind of creature Sauron was; but it still must have come as quite a shock to them when he reformed a physical body (thanks in part to the Ring) following the ruin of Númenor. They probably thought he was “dead”, banished from the world. Thinking on this, it’s easy to understand why Gil-galad and the Elves told Elendil and the Dúnedain for the first time about the Rings of Power. The Númenóreans had already encountered the Nazgûl in their wars against Sauron. (Cf. Appendix B for S.A. 2251: “… About this time the Nazgûl … first appear.”) Unaware of the Rings, they did not recognize these creatures for what they were, though they must have understood they were Men ruined in some way by Sauron. But in S.A. 3429, 129 years after the downfall of Númenor, when Sauron attacked, Elendil and his sons must have put some direct questions to Gil-galad and the Eldar: How could Sauron re-embody? the Dúnedain must have wondered. For the first time they received direct answers. Perhaps an incident from the tale of Beren and Lúthien, when Lúthien threatened to have Huan the Hound strip Sauron of his form unless he yielded her Tol Sirion, explains some of his motivation for making the Ring. As long as the Ring existed, Sauron could not be permanently disembodied, nor his power scattered; but of course, once the Ring was destroyed, both of these impediments became permanent. As an aside, I don’t think Ar-Pharazôn ever had any chance of taking the One Ring from Sauron. I don’t think could Ar-Pharazôn even see it – remember that neither Sam nor Frodo could see Galadriel’s ring until Frodo saw Sauron in the Mirror. Sauron’s servants were terrified of the Númenóreans and, despite their servile fear of Sauron, deserted him. Ar-Pharazôn took him hostage back to Númenor: this delighted Sauron: otherwise, he’d never have been able to get there. He had a rather overwhelming personality, and soon cozened Ar-Pharazôn.

06-16-2016, 04:55 PM	#8
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	In The Grey Havens (second edition version here) the story tells: "As he turned and came towards them Frodo saw that Gandalf now wore openly on his hand the Third Ring, Narya the Great, and the stone upon it was red as fire." Again, some might interpret this to mean Narya was now visible. Not me though... not yet anyway (well, I mean it was visible anyway). Plenty of folks wear rings in the Primary World of course... if you've got a magic ring and you want to keep it secret you might not want to wear it openly in front of some (those who might recognize it as a special thing)... but others will just see a ring. ... if they even notice such things that is.

06-17-2016, 10:03 AM	#9
Gothmog, LoB Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 38	Well, I just don't buy the idea that Sauron did take the One to Númenor. Tolkien's reasoning is pretty flawed in the letter, and he clearly did not consult what he had written in The Akallabêth before or he would have stumbled on those lines claiming that Sauron put the Great Ring up again. I mean, in context this is pretty clear. We don't have any lines mentioning Sauron leaving the One behind but if he took the One back from Númenor then he wouldn't have had no reason to pick it up somewhere - which he does in the text, in spirit form in his tower. @Alcuin: The problem with the reasoning there is that we have to jump through a lot of hoops to believe that no knowledge about the Rings of Power ever came to Númenor. 1. We know that there was contact between the Númenóreans and Lindon, and they eventually came to their aid. While it would make in hindsight sense for the Elves to not talk about the Rings back then Gil-galad could easily have talked about them. Even more so if he wanted to convince Telperien or Minastir to come to their aid. 2. Three great Númenóreans became Nazgûl. We don't know how or when exactly, nor who those guys were in life but if such a transformation did occur in Númenor then the Kings would have learned about that. 3. More importantly they would later also clashed with the Nazgûl on occasion in their wars in Middle-earth. Tolkien himself fails to provide us with the possibility that the One might have been invisible, making it unlikely that this was the case. His scenario is that Ar-Pharazôn did not recognize the One as being important. The idea that the One could be hidden the same way the Three obviously were doesn't feel right to me. It is an instrument of enormous power, it wants to be seen and the power its wearer gains through it would be visible, too. I doubt that a Sauron wearing the Ring could successfully fool the Númenóreans into believing that he was weak and so on. The Ring would have made Sauron appear powerful and regal, like the Maia he was, and that would have been more of an obstacle than a help. Whether the Three can be made invisible or not is another matter, but one we don't have to decide. Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond should all have the power to conceal such an item without using its power but rather other innate powers they do have. The idea that characters just don't recognize any visible rings for what they are makes no sense because Saruman kept Gandalf imprisoned at Orthanc. If he can take his staff from him he should also be able to Narya from him but he didn't. One assumes that Gandalf was indeed somehow able to conceal the Ring from Saruman. This example would suggests that perhaps there was some 'invisibility spell' on the Three, or that the Three indeed gave their wearers the ability to keep them hidden. IF Gandalf tried to hide Narya with some Maia tricks from Saruman one assumes he would have seen through that. But in the case of the One I don't think invisibility of the Ring itself was an option.