That's not even one of Uglúk's faults

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

It might have been, however, even if it was, it implies Grishnákh thought about this and certainly he did not consider himself nor Uglúk of having this "fault". This would raise the question how did he see himself, and how did the Orcs as a society see themselves, and it seems that Grishnákh did not think kindness is an important value, rather a weakness or an useless thing. The Orcs as a society were, in contrary to Men, composed mostly of individuals who thought the same as Grishnákh - considering these qualities unimportant. In a human society today, you have people who think it's a good thing to help those who are less fortunate and there are people who don't care in the slightest. Orcish society is the same only there is the difference that in their society the second type of people are quite large. How large, we don't know, but let's say above 90% (it may as well be 99%). Anyway, the point of the thread is the conclusion that can be made on basis of this, if any Orcs we know had any of these qualities.

Maybe a little context will go a long way.

Perhaps "kindness to enemies" was the fault.

[Huinesoron]

First off, I see a couple of references to Oddlots in the thread; I can confirm that Oddlots was written by Philosopher@Large, AKA Bellatrys (author of the famous Leithian Script). I don't think she has much of an online presence these days, but I happen to have archived a bunch of her stuff from Oddlots here, including the Arthedain Annex of LotR-M criticism.

Now, orcish morality. Before we can find their moral flaws, we need to know what their morals are. Legate has already mentioned the idea of them being anti-kindness:

Originally Posted by TTT 3: The Uruk-Hai

What do you think you've been kept alive for? My dear little fellows, please believe me when I say that it was not out of kindness: that's not even one of Uglúk's faults.

What is 'kindness'? Kuruharan suggests it might be 'kindness to enemies', but that still doesn't answer my question. A working definition might be: to do something for someone weaker than you at your own expense. It would be 'kindness' not to eat Merry and Pip, because orcs enjoy the taste of man-flesh, and the Hobbits are captives; it's not 'kindness' to obey Orders, because both the Eye and the White Hand are stronger than the orcs.

In other words:

Orc Moral #1: Might Makes Right.
Orc Moral #2: Follow Orders.

Legate has also pointed out that, while not being altruistic, orcs are expected to show solidarity:

Originally Posted by RotK 2: The Land of Shadow

‘I’ll give your name and number to the Nazgûl,’ said the soldier lowering his voice to a hiss. ‘One of them’s in charge at the Tower now.'

The other halted, and his voice was full of fear and rage. ‘You cursed peaching sneakthief!’ he yelled. ‘You can’t do your job, and you can’t even stick by your own folk. Go to your filthy Shriekers, and may they freeze the flesh off you! If the enemy doesn’t get them first. They’ve done in Number One, I’ve heard, and I hope it’s true!'

Interestingly, it's the physically weaker orc who gets outraged about this moral code being broken: the tracker is the second speaker. But, as The Might points out, the orcs wouldn't be willing to go up against Shelob for each other. There is a firm moral here, but also a flexible one:

Orc Moral #3: Stand by your Kin (when the Bosses aren't around).

Grishnákh seems to follow this on an intra-orc level, caring more about his own Mordor troops than Ugluk's Isengarders. Neither of them care much about the Northerners.

What else do we know? Something that, bizarrely, a lot of people on the Downs don't seem to have registered: orcs aren't cannibals.

Originally Posted by TTT 3: The Uruk-Hai

'Aye, we must stick together,' growled Uglúk. 'I don't trust you little swine. You've no guts outside your own sties. But for us you'd all have run away. We are the fighting Uruk-hai! We slew the great warrior. We took the prisoners. We are the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand: the Hand that gives us man's-flesh to eat. We came out of Isengard, and led you here, and we shall lead you back by the way we choose. I am Uglúk. I have spoken.'

'You have spoken more than enough, Uglúk,' sneered the evil voice. 'I wonder how they would like it in Lugbúrz. They might think that Uglúk's shoulders needed relieving of a swollen head. They might ask where his strange ideas came from. Did they come from Saruman, perhaps? Who does he think he is, setting up on his own with his filthy white badges? They might agree with me, with Grishnákh their trusted messenger; and I Grishnákh say this: Saruman is a fool. and a dirty treacherous fool. But the Great Eye is on him.

'Swine is it? How do you folk like being called swine by the muck-rakers of a dirty little wizard? It's orc-flesh they eat, I'll warrant.'

(Oddly enough, it was Oddlots that first pointed this out to me.)

Look at that line from Grishnákh - those aren't the words of someone who could ever imagine eating orc. That's someone for whom 'they eat orc-flesh' is a dire insult. Man-flesh, they will eat and enjoy, but their own 'species' is off-limits.

Orc Moral #4: Orcs are not Food.

That's probably enough to be going on with. (To be honest, the first three were - I've just seen too many 'Orcs as cannibal' comments and wanted to counter them. ^_~) So do we ever see an 'immoral' orc?

As it happens, most of these morals are highlighted by their breaking. Ugluk acts 'kindly'; he claims to be following Orders, but he also heals Merry's head wound, which wasn't really necessary. (I tend to agree with Philosopher@Large that Tolkien deliberately gave him a certain tarnished nobility, and that his final duel is part of this.) Grishnákh is pretty terribly at obeying Orders, first leaving the prisoners, then trying to take the Ring himself. And the entirety of Book 6 is stuffed full of a complete lack of solidarity.

My conclusion? Though orcs have a moral code, they absolutely suck at sticking to it. Which... isn't really all that surprising, considering.

hS