That's not even one of Uglúk's faults

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by alatar

And just who is the anti-Eowyn then?

That's easy. Gríma. (And that's another thread.)

I could be wrong but it seems to me that the eaves of the forest are described as being a distance from the remains of the battle, so "there were trees" is not exactly true.

Legate, your language analysis holds up as far as it is analysis; but there's a point at which you switch to opinion. There's nothing in the text to support that Eomer saw Ugluk as an equal in any other way except that he was leader of the orcs.

I still haven't had a chance to dig out my books, but I promise to do so.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by alatar

My comment regarding the terrain is that, by this time of the chase, Uglúk and his boys were near Fangorn, it was hilly (uphill) and there were trees. Maybe not the best place in which to fight from horseback.

At the edge of Fangorn, to be precise. But this does not mean still that the Riders would have to dismount, as long as they did not enter the forest itself (and maybe even then, to a certain distance... though Fangorn was a wild forest...). Anyway, there were Mauhúr and his lads coming out of the forest before, and we don't hear anything about the Riders dismounting, as far as I know.

Originally Posted by alatar

Agreed. But we do not know if Eomer chose to leave his horse behind, as maybe he thought that his horse was already overtired and so risked the chance of death due to the terrain.

A Rohir, leaving his horse behind just like that? Very, very improbable.

Originally Posted by alatar

So, knowing this about him, how fey do we allow him to be? Will this future King willy-nilly decide to duel any big orc that looks important? Does need drive him, or does he simply enjoy the combat, regardless of the risk and implications of his possible loss? Is he that macho?

I already stated my opinion (see above in my post and below now):

Originally Posted by alatar

I see him as fighting Ugluk out of necessity, not honor, as orcs have none.

That's your opinion. However, that does not speak about Uglúk, but about Éomer - he, unlike you apparently, believes that Uglúk deserves the "honourable fight", whatever kind of nassty creature he is.

Originally Posted by alatar

Did Azog show a moral flaw when he let Nár live to tell of the humiliating death of Thrór? Instead of simply killing the two, Azog had to pridefully boast (easy to do when a Balrog has your back), and this led to his eventual downfall.

That would be for the goblin historians to judge. The successive leader would probably say so ("Azog was an idiot, I will be a better leader. And we will have revenge for our defeat. Let's crush the Dwarves!!!" ...and so they went to Erebor...).

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Legate, your language analysis holds up as far as it is analysis; but there's a point at which you switch to opinion. There's nothing in the text to support that Eomer saw Ugluk as an equal in any other way except that he was leader of the orcs.

It is just an opinion and I said it. But that's what I encourage people to do. And I said it also because it better illustrates the way I see the Orcs, like Uglúk, so people can get clearer picture of what I have in mind when I am speaking more in general.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

At the edge of Fangorn, to be precise. But this does not mean still that the Riders would have to dismount, as long as they did not enter the forest itself (and maybe even then, to a certain distance... though Fangorn was a wild forest...). Anyway, there were Mauhúr and his lads coming out of the forest before, and we don't hear anything about the Riders dismounting, as far as I know.

The forest did not start all in a line; trees began to appear before reaching the 'edge.' But that has to be backed up, like I stated.

A Rohir, leaving his horse behind just like that? Very, very improbable.

Did they slay the orcs at night from their horses - not known for crawling - or did they leave them then and give battle, as they will later at Helm's Deep? And Eomer gives horses to strangers, so improbable things do happen.

That's your opinion. However, that does not speak about Uglúk, but about Éomer - he, unlike you apparently, believes that Uglúk deserves the "honourable fight", whatever kind of nassty creature he is.

That would be your opinion regarding Eomer. Why would he risk this? How did he know Ugluk was 'worthy,' while all of the other orcs that he shot from a distance or stabbed as they slept not worthy? Why do we not see this later? Was, in all of Middle Earth, only Ugluk worthy of such attentions?

That would be for the goblin historians to judge. The successive leader would probably say so ("Azog was an idiot, I will be a better leader. And we will have revenge for our defeat. Let's crush the Dwarves!!!" ...and so they went to Erebor...).

"We need to assemble our troops to attack those thieving dwarfs. Send messages to all our kin - use the good dwarven stationary this time..."


Sorry for the double post.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

That's easy. Gríma. (And that's another thread.)

And opposites do attract...

I could be wrong but it seems to me that the eaves of the forest are described as being a distance from the remains of the battle, so "there were trees" is not exactly true.

Though not exactly false. In another thread we established beyond all doubt that any dwarf could run from Parth Galen to Fangorn in 3.5 days, and so extrapolating from there, we have to assume that the hobbits - Merry and Pippin - were somewhat closer to trees as they had to crawl/walk to them before sunrise. Ugluk, having outraced said dwarf, surely would find 'some trees' in a few strides.

Don't have my books on me, but hope to back this up (or back out ) soon.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

An interesting subject, but also one where I fear that we will not find an answer that we can all agree upon.

Originally Posted by The Might

Orcs as a society are incapable of living together in peace, although there do indeed seem to be certain exceptions from this rule.
However, I am wondering if these exceptions were only moments of kindness or hints that there is more behind it.

If that was the case could it be that these Orcs were not understood by anyone, including the Valar? Because we see there would have been some hope for Gollum, but never anything is said of Orcs.

I do belive that orcs are incabable of living together in peace the way hobbits do, but that is not saying that they could not have their own independant and relatively peaceful societies societies.

Surely there must also have been crime of sorts amongst hobbits and we know that both elfs and men can be both warmongering and wicked. So these things will of course also be pressent amongst orcs, but I do not think that it is a given that they will start slaughtering each other whenever they have the chance.

It is seldome that you see orcs fighting within there own ranks, it seems to me that as long as that it is clear who is in command then they are quite capable of working together. It is when they are confronted with another group of orcs, which they don't identify with that they start killing each other.

This subject is something that has pussled me ever since I read the books for the first time. At first I thought that orcs where just mindless beasts, but when I read that conversation between Shagrat and Gorbag. . . That was gave me the sence that there was more to the orcs than just being mindles brawlers.

[alatar]

Regarding trees and Uglúk's last stand, here is the text that makes me think as I do (emphasis mine):

Originally Posted by TTT:The Uruk Hai

The Isengarders began to run with a redoubled pace that astonished Pippin, a terrific spurt it seemed for the end of a race. Then he saw that the sun was sinking, falling behind the Misty Mountains; shadows reached over the land. The soldiers of Mordor lifted their heads and also began to put on speed. The forest was dark and close. Already they had passed a few outlying trees. The land was beginning to slope upwards, ever more steeply; but the orcs did not halt. Both Uglúk and Grishnákh shouted, spurring them to a last effort.

Before the orcs make their last camp upon the hillock, they already have encountered trees, and the ground in sloping upward in the direction that they wish to go (and later try to escape).

The eaves of the forest were very near, probably no more than three furlongs away, but they could go no further. The horsemen had encircled them. A small band disobeyed Uglúk's command, and ran on towards the forest: only three returned.

The edge of the forest, even though we already have trees, is only ~660 yards or 603 meters away at most. And did I mention 'sloping?'

Then with a great cry the Riders charged from the East; the red light gleamed on mail and spear. The Orcs yelled and shot all the arrows that remained to them. The hobbits saw several horsemen fall; but their line held on up the hill and over it, and wheeled round and charged again. Most of the raiders that were left alive then broke and fled, this way and that, pursued one by one to the death. But one band, holding together in a black wedge, drove resolutely in the direction of the forest. Straight up the slope they charged towards the watchers. Now they were drawing near, and it seemed certain that they would escape: they had already hewn down three Riders that barred their way.

We have Uglúk and his mates trying to escape to the forest, uphill with some tree cover. Three Riders - not Rohirrim, or men, but Riders were hewn down by the orcs. Doesn't Eomer lose a total of 15 men during the whole affair, and here in this brief moment he loses 20% of the total, and that because of a "band?" To me, this means that not only were these orcs the best of the bunch, but also that they had some advantage.

[littlemanpoet]

Here's just the first instance I found.

'So you've come back?' [Uglúk] said. 'Thought better of it, eh?'

'I've returned to see that Orders are carried out and the prisoners safe,' answered Grishnákh.

'Indeed!' said Uglúk. 'Waste of effort. I'll see that orders are carried out in my command. And what else did you come back for? You went in a hurry. Did you leave anything behind?'

'I left a fool,' snarled Grishnákh. 'But there were some stout fellows with him that are too good to lose. I knew you'd lead them into a mess. I've come to help them.'

Grishnákh twice makes sarcastic remarks regarding his motives: to see that prisoners are safe and to help stout fellows. Uglúk remarks upon better thought, which (1) denotes thought process and (2) value. These are statements of value, not in terms of money, but ability and character, which denotes moral standards.

Following this is Uglúk's taunt about the Nazgúl and then Grishnákh's retort, which serves to reveal that Grishnákh is more evil and more knowledgeable than Uglúk. Then Uglúk says,

'You seem to know a lot ... More than is good for you, I guess.'

"Good for you". This again denotes moral sense.

And both exchanges show that each orc is pointing out blame in the other and virtue (of a sort) in himself.

There are other instances of this kind of exchange, both here between Uglúk and Grishnákh, as well as between Gorbag and Shagrat in the Tower of Cirith Ungol.