Was Gandalf a Valar?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by R.R.J Tolkien

I scanned 153 are you sure its in that letter?

My mistake. I should have said 156.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galin

In Glorfindel I (Last Writings, The Peoples of Middle-Earth) for example, the word Maiar is footnoted by Tolkien: "That angelic order to which Gandalf originally belonged: lesser in power and authority than the Valar, but of the same nature . . ."

This is of course the key point: regardless of how fun the Gandalf-Vala notion is, Tolkien was both clear and consistent that he wasn't.

Originally Posted by R.R.J Tolkien

Interesting insight, but I did not see Gandalf speaking to Manwe. Where did you see that?

Somewhere in Tolkien's files there is the most amazing sheet of paper. In UT, Christopher says 'On the reverse of the isolated page containing the narrative of the choice of the Istari by the Valar appears the following very remarkable note', and then gives the text I've used for my 'Gandalf cult' theory'. The 'narrative of the choice' is summarised earlier, and says this:

Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales: The Istari

Of major interest, however, is a brief and very hasty sketch of a narrative, telling of a council of the Valar, summoned it seems by Manwë ("and maybe he called upon Eru for counsel?"), at which it was resolved to send out three emissaries to Middle-earth. "Who would go ? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.

The note ends with the statement that Curumo [Saruman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him, and that Alatar took Pallando as a friend.

I think you already noticed this, but that's Olorin speaking directly to Manwe. The trouble with your idea that Olorin isn't Gandalf, is that Olorin only exists in the narrative to be Gandalf. He's not a pre-existing character who was later equated with him - the name was first written down in LotR itself, and every other version is an attempt to explain it.

Originally Posted by R.R.J Tolkien

How are you copy pasting online from UT? let me in on your lore I wish to join. Did you find them online free? I found his letters.

^_^ I wouldn't actually be averse to typing these quotes out, but I Don't Have My Books On Me(TM), so it's easier to find a copy online. Simply Googling 'Unfinished Tales text' usually pops something up.

hS

[Rhun charioteer]

I think the evidence is pretty clear Gandalf is a Maia, Maiar and Valar are both Ainur so they are the same "essence" or "group"

[R.R.J Tolkien]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

This is of course the key point: regardless of how fun the Gandalf-Vala notion is, Tolkien was both clear and consistent that he wasn't.



Somewhere in Tolkien's files there is the most amazing sheet of paper. In UT, Christopher says 'On the reverse of the isolated page containing the narrative of the choice of the Istari by the Valar appears the following very remarkable note', and then gives the text I've used for my 'Gandalf cult' theory'. The 'narrative of the choice' is summarised earlier, and says this:



I think you already noticed this, but that's Olorin speaking directly to Manwe. The trouble with your idea that Olorin isn't Gandalf, is that Olorin only exists in the narrative to be Gandalf. He's not a pre-existing character who was later equated with him - the name was first written down in LotR itself, and every other version is an attempt to explain it.



^_^ I wouldn't actually be averse to typing these quotes out, but I Don't Have My Books On Me(TM), so it's easier to find a copy online. Simply Googling 'Unfinished Tales text' usually pops something up.

hS

Yes it appears my conspiracy might not pan out very well. I refuse to give in so easy, more reading is needed.

As for manwe speaking to Olorin, that is ok with at least one possibility offered, that Manwe took his name as a incognito.