Why Imrazor the Numenorean?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Hmm. HoME V contains a slightly longer version of Manwe's judgement on Earendil and Elwing than is found in the Silm (emphasis mine):



What's interesting is that Manwe explicitly states that any with mortal blood are mortal, unless he says otherwise. That means that Dior, Elured, and Elurin were fully mortal, and that Earendil and Elwing were mortal until they reached Valinor (which may explain the Numenorean idea that going to Valinor makes you immortal). Mithrellas' children would also be mortal.

But does this apply to the final Silm? I don't think its removal was a Christopher edit - I think it was a change made by Tolkien himself. But it could still just have been for conciseness... or to avoid any undue quibbles of 'then why did Arwen get to be mortal?'. Because the text as written is explicit: her father gets a choice, she doesn't. She'd either be an Elf (if 'under which kindred they shall be judged' indicates that they fully become that kindred) or mortal (if 'all those who have the blood of mortal Men' still covers her), but not get to choose between.

hS

That's a fantastic quote. It's pretty clear, in actual conditions, and I'd be curious to hear from Morthoron about it. It seems, doesn't it, that the choice goes to a son. So, though I am wondering if that was because we had Elrond and Elros around by then?

In any case, it's interesting then that we have an exception, or some form of variation to the Decree. Perhaps, the Twins (did they die in the forest?) were, by prayer or ritual, in a Communion with Manwe going to get the same Choice as Arwen?

It's a great quotation, so I'm going to add the post you cited, into a summary thread.

Cheers
Ivrieniel

[William Cloud Hicklin]

AIUI, without looking, the final section of the published Silmarillion, from Earendil's arrival in Valinor on, was copied directly from the portion at the end of the Qenta which Tolkien (for reasons unknown) revised ca 1937. However, CT reworked this material fairly heavily, in part because certain clearly obsolete concepts like the Children of the Valar were still present, but also because things were stated explicitly which he wasn't sure hadn't been modified by the LR or later thinking-- such as the "one drop rule" for Men.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

AIUI, without looking, the final section of the published Silmarillion, from Earendil's arrival in Valinor on, was copied directly from the portion at the end of the Qenta which Tolkien (for reasons unknown) revised ca 1937. However, CT reworked this material fairly heavily, in part because certain clearly obsolete concepts like the Children of the Valar were still present, but also because things were stated explicitly which he wasn't sure hadn't been modified by the LR or later thinking-- such as the "one drop rule" for Men.

Can confirm this (I Have My Books With Me(TM)). So once again we run afoul of Tolkien's inability to write as far as the tale of Earendil.

hS

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Can confirm this (I Have My Books With Me(TM)). So once again we run afoul of Tolkien's inability to write as far as the tale of Earendil.

hS

I suppose that the age (pardon pun) of materials at 1937 makes the shorter version of the Decree less gender bound.

But, as a niggling thought that keeps coming up, and contrasting The Hobbit's development alongside, (as an exemplar of how we write, in a non-linear temporal sense) we have materials clearly about the 1st age now, in the Professor's head, when he began LotR. The Hobbit's Rivendell full of Elves, must have been a haven for the First Born, in the author's head.

The point, then about the Decree of the Pereldar involves a collision of three major literary Canon matters: 1. his Silmarillion materials and lifelong love of First Age Heroism, a point about Unwin rejecting a manuscript, 2. The Hobbit, a "Bedside Story" and the matter of the Ring, as, it seems from Letters, 'no Evil Artefact', Rivendell, Elves, and 3. LotR's compilation, under pressure from Unwin to produce, after the Hobbit. The point goes to 'that which is implicit, not explicit' but clearly inferable or even Canon though absent from things written. Letters, for example, about the Hobbit, don't map onto when things about the mythology were encoded. The example generalises. For example, Ring Lore came later, if my memory cells recall right. Noteworthy, Glamdring and Orcrest somehow found their way to a Troll home, as noted by Elrond in the Hobbit. Were the swords the spoils of war from Rhudaur and Arnor? Or Fornost, or even from the Five Wars of the first age. It's a messy overlay on First Age heroism. The shortening of the wording of the Decree implies the Professor wanted to widen the pool of blood of Edain permitted in Eldar immortality.

Is there room, then, (the point going to that which the author left tacit, rather than explicit) to get a better theory, than just speculation, that might suggest the Elvish (c.f. human habitations, aka Dol Amroth) populations had quite a bit more Human bloodlines in them than we know? Are there Elves in the Westernesse who have bloodlines from the First Age, such as events like Elurid and Elurin? Did Gilmith the offspring of Mithrellas and Ivriniel die? Or did they make their way to Mithlond? There was transport that occurred between Mithlond and Edhellond and at the least we knew that.

It follows from extending meaning of the Decree to have room to infer 'descendants' after a date. As a birthtime forwards, rather than bound to nomenclature of surname, or parenting. For example, the 'first cousin of Elwing born 2000 years later who had a half-elvish offspring', as a point of conjecture.

I also interpreted the Choice of the Pereldar as becoming active, again, should for example Elladan and Elrohir have offspring with Elves. Such children are still the Descendants of Elros and Elrond. Doesn't the Decree empower the child, not the parent to define their Destiny, no small thing, given how Mandos houses Spirits. Isn't it a question about Spirit migration, and don't the Children of Illuvatar commune with the Valar during life?