Why Imrazor the Numenorean?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I mean, why was he any more Numenorean than any of his contemporaries in the Gondorian nobility? It's true that Dol Amroth's line was founded before the Exile--- but that was long centuries before the TA 1980s!

Why would the Mouth of Sauron be referred to as a Black Númenórean when that line could not feasibly still be in existence? One would think Tolkien would not allow an evil race defeated nearly two millennia earlier to still "run true", would he? I'm thinking it was for effect. What better way to aggrandize a mortal taken into service by the Dark Lord, even if the timeline does not work?

In Imrazôr's case, it was more genealogical propaganda than writer's effect, one would think. In medieval history, royal houses often associated themselves with a noble, sometimes mythical, progenitor for prestige's sake. I've seen some medieval genealogies that go beyond stretching the bounds of credulity.

Naturally, the founder of the House of Dol Amroth would be a lord of the line whom Elendil had granted entitlement as Prince of Belfalas. These were from a family of Númenóreans akin to the Lords of Andúnië, therefore perhaps distaff relations to Elendil and descended from the House of Elros.

And so, to strengthen that legendary bond to Elendil and the Lords of Andúnië, it may or may not be the case that Imrazôr was referred to as "the Númenórean" in his lifetime; but certainly many later generations found it politically expedient to refer to Imrazôr as such, just as it was wholly necessary from a propagandist standpoint to emphasize the legendary aspect of his marriage to the elf-maid Mithrellas, allegedly one of Nimrodel's Silvan companions. That the house was founded by half-elf children of a Númenórean sire gave Dol Amroth a prestige rivaling the later kings of Gondor, and overshadowing the lesser lineages of the Stewards.

I've always wondered if Legolas was just being polite when he told Prince Imrahil, "It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water." Did Legolas say that with an eye roll?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

According to Word of God, Legolas was tipped off, legitimately, by Imrahil's beardlessness (apparently a trait of all Elf-descended Men). Take that, Viggo-stubble!

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Of interest, also, is Imrazor's aggressively Adunaic name, in a country where everyone else, as far as can be seen, had Sindarin names. Oddly, that would seem to align him symbolically with the King's Men, not the Faithful.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Oddly, that would seem to align him symbolically with the King's Men, not the Faithful.

I suppose it might be comparable to the Men of Gondor building the monument in Umbar to Ar-Pharazôn's humbling of Sauron despite Pharazôn being the leader of the King's Men. If they were fine with that then perhaps using their old language was fine regardless of its historical political and spiritual connotations.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Of interest, also, is Imrazor's aggressively Adunaic name, in a country where everyone else, as far as can be seen, had Sindarin names. Oddly, that would seem to align him symbolically with the King's Men, not the Faithful.

I was going to say, maybe he was nicknamed "the Númenórean" as in "guy who won't shut up about his proud Númenórean heritage".

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I was going to say, maybe he was nicknamed "the Númenórean" as in "guy who won't shut up about his proud Númenórean heritage".

He wears a Lords of Andúnië football jersey on the weekends, and has the Númenórean banner on his front porch for Elendil Day.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

He wears a Lords of Andúnië football jersey on the weekends, and has the Númenórean banner on his front porch for Elendil Day.

Hello Morthoron, it's great to see you. Forgive the 'getting lengthy' and 'half-elfy' digression on this thread.

Back on topic, I don't understand how a 'Republican Red' jerkin on, as was well put, an 'aggressively Numenorean' male, ended up with an Elf. It's an oddly disturbing temperament, in a troubling Union.

Is anything else known about the fate of his wife?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Is anything else known about the fate of his wife?

Although not spot on to motifs employed in folklore where mortal men marry netherworldly maidens (selkies and mermaids, for instance, who escape marriage after retrieving their skins), in many cases the netherworldly wife often becomes disenchanted and leaves husband and child after a short time, never to be seen again (usually returning to Faery). Tolkien, known to borrow various folklorish motifs, seems to have engaged just such a retelling in this case. Elvish post-partum depression, perhaps.

Mithrellas meaning "grey leaf" indicates flightiness, capriciousness or variability in a certain sense.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Why would the Mouth of Sauron be referred to as a Black Númenórean when that line could not feasibly still be in existence? One would think Tolkien would not allow an evil race defeated nearly two millennia earlier to still "run true", would he? I'm thinking it was for effect. What better way to aggrandize a mortal taken into service by the Dark Lord, even if the timeline does not work?

In Imrazôr's case, it was more genealogical propaganda than writer's effect, one would think. In medieval history, royal houses often associated themselves with a noble, sometimes mythical, progenitor for prestige's sake. I've seen some medieval genealogies that go beyond stretching the bounds of credulity.

Naturally, the founder of the House of Dol Amroth would be a lord of the line whom Elendil had granted entitlement as Prince of Belfalas. These were from a family of Númenóreans akin to the Lords of Andúnië, therefore perhaps distaff relations to Elendil and descended from the House of Elros.

And so, to strengthen that legendary bond to Elendil and the Lords of Andúnië, it may or may not be the case that Imrazôr was referred to as "the Númenórean" in his lifetime; but certainly many later generations found it politically expedient to refer to Imrazôr as such, just as it was wholly necessary from a propagandist standpoint to emphasize the legendary aspect of his marriage to the elf-maid Mithrellas, allegedly one of Nimrodel's Silvan companions. That the house was founded by half-elf children of a Númenórean sire gave Dol Amroth a prestige rivaling the later kings of Gondor, and overshadowing the lesser lineages of the Stewards.

I've always wondered if Legolas was just being polite when he told Prince Imrahil, "It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water." Did Legolas say that with an eye roll?

Here's something interesting to me which might further illustrate the Imrazor question.

My mother's family came from the Yorkshire & Durham areas in the 1800s, and promptly settled in the hill country in Appalachia, where they remained until her mother and father (my grandparents) moved to Michigan. There, my mother met my father.

My mother took a DNA test recently, and came back with a result of 94% British/English, which (according to the company) is a higher percentage than the average Englishman or Englishwoman of today.

Her DNA/ancestry was hermetically sealed (I suppose that's a good enough analogy) in the valleys and hills of Appalachia for several generations, which produced her startling result.

Perhaps generations of living on Dol Amroth had a similar effect on Imrazor.