The Balrog as the Loathly Lady from medieval literature.

[monks]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Prediction 8 & Prediction 6



hS

Let's just take the first prediction in isolation.

Tolkien Prediction #71

That Tolkien would refer to Shelob as 'loathly' or loathsome'.

Hardly had Sam hidden the light of the star-glass when she came. A little way ahead and to his left he saw suddenly, issuing from a black hole of shadow under the cliff, the most loathly shape that he had ever beheld, horrible beyond the horror of an evil dream. Most like a spider she was, but huger than the great hunting beasts, and more terrible than they because of the evil purpose in her remorseless eyes.


Why would you or anyone generalize your argument about something that is so specific? Why would you refute that statement of that prediction with a general argument about the nature of predictions? What is the chance of that word being used to describe Shelob? Tell me. And the fact that I included 'loathsome' as the other word is irrelevant because it was made because of the LOATHLY lady theme- the very word which Tolkien used, and he uses it nowhere else in those '600,000' words of the LoTR. You are avoiding the subject. This has nothing to do with the nature of predictions generally -me 'seeing things I want to see' as you are characterizing it. It's about the fact that I made that specific prediction about that specific word occurring in that work to describe that specific character in it.

And I also told you that I'd never heard that word before I encountered the Loathly Lady motif in my research.

So let's deal with the matter in hand instead of avoiding it.

You are avoiding the facts in front of you. And you are avoiding the facts because you don't understand HOW I was able to make that prediction. And I have explained that it was through the forensic study of the etymologies of an enormous number of words in Tolkien's texts and letters over 15 years through which I arrived at my understanding of (among others things) how he incorporates male and female conflict (as I term it left and right handedness in 'the geometry')- the battle of the sexes- which is the subject of the Loathly Lady theme. And just by coincidence that study, that approach, is also something that you have never done.

Do you see the correlation there between not understanding and not thinking it possible and not doing the work and using the method yourself? And it's not like my method is using a crystal ball is it? It's etymology- the very stuff Tolkien lived and breathed and indeed what he told us his works were all about.

That by doing work you have never done, by using an approach that that you (and indeed anyone else) have never used I was able to do something that you can't do, and indeed don't understand. And what's more the efficacy of that method is supported by the Hammond and Scull example. And I make that point. It reveals that my method can give insights into his works that experts don't have, moreover insights into things I have never even seen. And that study of his etymologies revealed an understanding of the relationship of conflict, and indeed specific details of that conflict (the oppression of the female by the male for eg) between male and female which, having encountered the Loathly Lady motif, initiated that prediction.

So let's forget about all of the other predictions and focus on #71 in isolation shall we?

The chances of me being able to make that prediction are EXTREMELY remote. You might expect loathsome- possibly. The odds are not that great for that. But for Loathly it is. It's a very rare archaic word. Moreover I only encountered the word Loathly from the medieval motif, which supports the idea that he used it for Shelob because ...she is the Loathly Lady, or a manifestation of her. And then in addition you have the descriptions about Shelob representing the vagina dentata by others- as I found after I'd made the prediction. The vagina dentata is part of the Loathly Lady motif. So...there you have even more remote probability because clearly other people have identified Shelob with that theme.

And what's more that prediction did not even raise an eyebrow of curiosity from you, never mind acceptance of anything else I've said.

THAT behaviour alone Huinersoron is abnormal because it completely ignores the statistical improbability of that happening. It is YOUR behaviour, not mine, which is abberant or irrational.

And as if that wasn't enough. We can further multiply that irrationality again.

That prediction is regarding the Loathly Lady. And I've also stated that the Balrog is another incarnation of the Loathly Lady motif. And by another remote chance I later discovered that the Loathly Lady is MORE THAN ONCE described in the literature as carrying a multi-thonged whip. Just like the Balrog. I posted the update. And we are actually in that thread. And you knew about the essay before this update. So YOU know about both of those facts.

Now...consider that fact that I arrived at both of those characters being a manifestation of the same thing, via the same method, we can use probability and multiply that chance that I am wrong about my understanding. And we arrive at an even higher statistical improbability. And both of those things, Shelob and the Balrog derive form the same root understanding of the Loathly Lady theme.

So by multiplying that improbability we multiply your irrationality.

And yet there you are behaving in the manner that you are.

The only other thing you can bring to the table is, it was all just a massively improbable chance (and ignore the next 100 predictions waiting to be addressed) or that I'm lying about making that prediction. And to be frank with you, I think the reason why you pointed out that the image I first gave you for the first hidden image (the two female eyes) in the list above, was heavily cropped, was because I was trying to hide something from you- to limit the scope of the possibilities in some way right? And I've just given you the full image and it's actually added more supporting evidence to my initial argument. In addition you made the remark about 'indisputable power' even after me distancing myself from that kind of stuff in this thread. So both of those together suggest to me that you think I'm lying or am suffering from some kind of psychological delusion, ignoring what I'm saying, or any combination thereof. But that's not really the important issue at all here- unless you make it the important issue right?

And yet you still haven't responded to that update on that image of the eyes but posted your bizarre reply.

Again avoidance.

You behaviour IS irrational and it's rooted in the fact that you can't understand the system I'm describing. And if you can't understand the system you have applied your ignorance of that, to every single prediction and contributing piece of evidence. And let's be kind here, the reason why you can't understand the system is because you think my posts are too long and you simply don't have the time to read them or understand them. Well if you don't TAKE the time to read my posts, you'll not be able to understand the system. Obviously. But you still feel justified in your behaviour. So we go round and round in a circle- or rather you do. I'm actually continuing giving you further supporting evidence to avoid that situation and for anyone who might read this thread here or via google.

We can approach each prediction one at a time if you'd like-...shall we try beginning with #71? I already tried that anyway with Predictions #1 and 2..but we can try again.

Those two items: the loathly prediction and the whip update, would at the absolute minimum raise an eyebrow from any rational person. But they didn't. (Indeed the update was described by one lunatic as clickbait.) That is NOT a normal, rational response Huinersoron.

So, in an effort to be constructive, let's try take a few steps back. Let's ignore the system, the other predictions and the images, and any other presumptions we might have made about each other or any misunderstandings..and just concentrate on the statistical improbability of those two facts above regarding the loathly prediction and the multi-thonged whip. And we'll throw in the vagina dentata details too for good measure.

Care to try?

Any time dude.

monks

[Galadriel55]

I was successfully keeping my hands clean until now. But -

Originally Posted by monks

Those two items: the loathly prediction and the whip update, would at the absolute minimum raise an eyebrow from any rational person. But they didn't. (Indeed the update was described by one lunatic as clickbait.) That is NOT a normal, rational response Huinersoron.

monks, are you saying that you're surprised that no one else raised an eyebrow? Let me just follow your logic here.

Premise: A rational person would agree with your claim.
Observation: No one so far agrees with your claim.
Conclusion: All of them are just irrational idiots who refuse to see the truth!

Talking about plausibility, what do you think is more plausible: every single person around you is an idiot, or your premise is incorrect and your claim is in fact NOT something rational people would agree with?

People aren't saying that what you say is completely and absolutely wrong. But it also isn't completely and absolutely right. It's shaky speculation - perhaps entertaining to indulge in, but not something a rational person is willing to accept as absolute truth. I am baffled at how you can accept your conjecture as absolute truth, given that you're not exactly dealing with exact science here.

[monks]

monks, are you saying that you're surprised that no one else raised an eyebrow? Let me just follow your logic here.

Premise: A rational person would agree with your claim.
Observation: No one so far agrees with your claim.
Conclusion: All of them are just irrational idiots who refuse to see the truth!

Talking about plausibility, what do you think is more plausible: every single person around you is an idiot, or your premise is incorrect and your claim is in fact NOT something rational people would agree with?

People aren't saying that what you say is completely and absolutely wrong. But it also isn't completely and absolutely right. It's shaky speculation - perhaps entertaining to indulge in, but not something a rational person is willing to accept as absolute truth. I am baffled at how you can accept your conjecture as absolute truth, given that you're not exactly dealing with exact science here.[/QUOTE]

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Hi, firstly, what's my conjecture? Can we please stick to the post immediately above.

I don't expect it to be accepted as absolute truth. But there is no way that a rational response to those details is to start making broad observations about the nature of predictions (in an aping manner I might add) and inferring that I'm an ego maniac. He's got the time to make those posts and yet he didn't have the time to read my long posts. D'you see what I mean? And I made the point that virtually every link I posted as supporting evidence are pictures so there was no time required. And then instead of following up on my evidence which addressed what he thought about the woman's face he ignored it and went into the ape routine. It was a single click on an image. Regards that, I've actually annotated the image now to help. It is a woman because you can see her hair which veil her eyes. The subject is the dance of the 7 veils.

http://www.thewindrose.net/wickednesswoman/

The two eyes are obvious. The lower eye is her mouth. You can see that he has put a little notch to suggest her nose and the line under the eye-mouth is her chin. The left side of the face is also suggested with pencil marks. You can even see the two eyes to either side of her eye-mouth to be a pair of ear-rings- because this is intended to be a gypsy woman. This is a medieval symbolic landscape (all of his material is)- it's not just riddling. It has a serious purpose and source in the Arthurian Romances.

Anyway...keeping to the post.

In total, the odds of those details above indicating that *I might well be onto something* are too great for that to be a reasonable response. Simply from a probability point of view. And the clickbait response is totally risible yes. As far as I'm concerned he has behaved like an idiot *in that instance*.

What you are essentially saying is how can several (how many?) people 'all' be wrong about something, and I be right? Even when those people probably have not EVEN READ my supporting evidence or clicked on the links. If they haven't read it, then yes they can certainly be wrong. And if 100 people behaved like that, ditto. He's not even read my predictions and he's able to dismiss all 102 made over 15 years in a few days. That's absolutely risible too. 15 years, literally 1000s of etymologies in text and he's banging on about Samurai and thinks he can seriously counter that in two days off the top of his head with no reference to the etymologies in Tolkien's text whatever. Seems legit. It's a complete joke. The Loathly prediction just by itself is very compelling evidence that my reasons for making the prediction are sound. Let's go through each prediction one by one- which is what I intend to do until he is persuaded. If it takes time to accumulate the weight of evidence so be it. Well isn't that the nature of research and new ideas? There is nothing unusual about a position of being right and lots of other people being wrong. It DOES happen. And note it's not about the predictions, it's about proving that the system I'm saying Tolkien has, which makes him predictable, exists.

Here's an illustration of how Huinersoron's mind is working.

Me: "Tolkien has his own personal system of numerology influenced by Dante and it can be found in the Chain of Angainor. Stanza lengths of his poems use it."
Hui: "Numerology is subjective."

In other words he didn't listen to what I said. He had already seized upon 'numerology' as some kind of Dan Brown view of the world. This is..let me repeat...TOLKIEN'S OWN PERSONAL SYSTEM.

I have a friend. He started out being completely unconvinced by every thing I said to him. After 12 months he is totally convinced about everything I'm saying and is now involved in my research. Because I have demonstrated to him the consistency of argument and all of the evidence over a long period. And that's what I'm trying to duplicate here. In my last post to Huinersoron I'm trying to establish a ground zero with a simple starting point of one prediction. And in this case it happens to have developed a little history with the update on the Balrog.

I think the details of my previous post above speak for themselves.

I'm not falling out with anyone- yaknow...but I think this has all spiraled out into a nonsense exchange. :-)

monks

[Huinesoron]

Well, after a busy week I come back to find my behaviour is abnormal (monks post #21), aberrant (#21), irrational (#21), bizarre (#21), an 'ape routine' (#23), and 'like an idiot' (#23). So that's fun. Also that I'm avoiding clicking on an image which I'd already looked at while discussing various parts of the image, and that by continuing the list that I'd already promised to complete, I'm... ooh, all sorts of things.

monks - when you first posted, I went to your website to see what you had. Your predictions page centres on a colour-coded table with no indication I could find of what the colours mean, and no indication of whether you've proven them true or false. The full explanation of them consists of a 200+ page PDF which has no way of skipping to a specific prediction, and is naturally impossible to use on a phone. When you link to things related to your predictions, they are more often than not random pictures with no explanation of what's going on.

Now, it may be that somewhere you have a nice list of separate discussions (such as blog posts) which lay everything out nice and neatly. But you haven't made them intuitively easy to find, and I don't owe you the time to go looking for them. If I'm going to do 'work' for one of my hobbies, it will be 'work' I enjoy - such as, for example, 'proving' Tolkien's love of The Seven Samurai. That was fun. ^_^

(And incidentally, I wasn't inferring you were an egomaniac - I was playacting as one to emphasise the silliness of my theory. Sorry that came out wrong!)

Similarly, no, I cannot just reply to your posts, because your posts are spread so broad. In the one where you said you were going to focus solely on 'Wickedness' and on the Door, you still brought in, what, a dozen different predictions. Once again, I don't owe you the time to dig through and figure out what needs a reply.

And yet, here I am. So: my reply will not cover everything you've said, but will cover whatever pops out to me as important.

1/ I think you're misunderstanding my point about numerology. I'm saying that, whether Tolkien had a system or not, your ability to 'interpret' that system is fundamentally subjective. You can 'predict' things in such a way that they will always be true. I'm not saying you'd do it deliberately! But, for example, your 'seven unveilings' prediction (which your link does nothing to explain) requires you to - subjectively - determine what constitutes an unveiling. I guarantee you I could find something to fit in every single chapter of LotR - but you have predicted 7, and interpreted the book in light of that prediction.

2/ The 'Wickedness' woman: no. The 'hair' comes from beneath the eyes - it's a moustache, if anything, but really it's some quite evocative shading. Could it be symbolically hair? Sure! Just as it could be two opposing forces fighting, or a butterfly's wings, or a giant claw, or or or... it's subjective. You are saying that Tolkien, before Middle-earth was even a twinkle in his eye, already had this system of yours and used it in his private sketchbook. I counter by saying that you're subjectively interpreting the supposed system into his works.

A test for you: here's my deviantArt. Imagine I follow Tolkien's system. Now take a look through my pictures and find the evidence to support that theory. (I'll start you off: there's a diamond of seven women here for the 7 veils, and a string of four Dagazes here.)

3/ Your prediction 71, 'loathly'. Sure, maybe! There's ten 'loath-' words across LotR, and that's the only 'loathly'. It's an unusual word, so going from 'Tolkien described "Her Ladyship" as loathly' to 'he was referring to the Loathly Lady' isn't actually a big leap. Well done on finding that.

But. Several buts, in fact:

• You predicted 'loathly or loathsome'. You were right with the less common word, but you would still be claiming it as true had you found the more common one. The spiders in The Hobbit are 'loathsome'; this now looks less like a miraculous prediction, and more like an easy win that paid off with a bonus.
• Tolkien uses a lot of words to describe Shelob. In that paragraph alone, I count at least 15 distinctive adjectives used of her. You've selected one as relevant to your theory, but had you come in with a completely different theory, you might be just as enthusiastic about 'blotched'.
• Let's assume that loathly Shelob is because of the Loathly Lady. That still does nothing to demonstrate an overarching theme - just that Tolkien knew the phrase (obviously!) and wanted to drop it in - a "low philological jest", if you will. He does that a lot - the most obvious is that Numenor and Eressea are "coincidentally" also named Atlantis and Avalon. That doesn't mean there's a deep Plato theme running through Middle-earth - it just means Tolkien likes references. You think you've found strong links to other parts of the story - but see alllll the previous comments on subjectivity.

4/ Your balrog whips theory reveals something significant. Unfortunately, it's that you're not taking the timeline of Tolkien's writing into account. Balrogs have had whips since 1917's Fall of Gondolin, the first full story of the Legendarium; they weren't given them as part of a theme with Shelob, because there was no Shelob! In fact, at the time the Balrog was written into LotR, there was still no Shelob. Hunt down HoME VII, The Treason of Isengard, and check out 'The Story Foreseen from Lorien' - Tolkien's original plan still had an infiltration of a tower, but that tower was Minas Morgul, and both Sam and Frodo took part! Things like the stone sentinels are in there - but Shelob is not. Tolkien categorically cannot have put the Balrog's whip in as part of a theme with Shelob - because the whip came long before he invented Her Ladyship.

And this is the problem. We know far too much about Tolkien's writing process to treat every word as part of a deliberate plan. Are there references in there? Definitely! Are some of yours actual references Tolkien intended? Almost certainly! But are they part of some larger scheme? To prove that, you'd need to prove from the known timeline of Tolkien's writing that he was actually working to a plan. All your continued talk of etymology attempts to prove is that he could have done it - not that he did.

No doubt I have missed things I wanted to comment on, but this is already a 70 minute post, so you'll have to be content with that.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

This is..let me repeat...TOLKIEN'S OWN PERSONAL SYSTEM

Which is evidenced by which writings of his? Certainly not in anything published to date- perhaps you have privy access to the Bodleian's manuscripts collection?

There is not a single thing in anything known about Tolkien's life or interests which suggests the least interest in numerology or any other occultist mumbo-jumbo (and he deplored those tendencies in Charles Williams).

Apparently my jibe about Foucault and Lot 49 went right over your head- they are both satires of obsessive people who see imaginary patterns in randomness and create great delusional conspiracy theories around them.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

There is not a single thing in anything known about Tolkien's life or interests which suggests the least interest in numerology or any other occultist mumbo-jumbo (and he deplored those tendencies in Charles Williams).

That's the crux of the matter.

It's all well and good (for some, anyway) to parse the works of a deceased author in search of hidden signs and secret meanings.
With the lack of any evidence that said author ever would have intended to impart such things into his products, it's just the "investigator" reading his own inherent biases and beliefs into them.

[monks]

Guys, a reply to all 3 of you if I may

Ok, no worries Hui,

The meaning, his system is hidden BECAUSE?...it's all hidden right under our noses in the etymologies. c.f The Boatmen's Song example I posted. That accounts for most all of why his system has never been understood before now. HE HAS A SYSTEM. The Secret Grammar alluded to in 'A Secret Vice'. His system is based on planar geometry (fundamentally the triangle) which he took from Plato's Republic, on orientation (West-East, North-South opposites) and on the TURN which moves between those planes. Orientation was extremely important in the Ancient and medieval world- ie putting east at the top of maps etc. "To TURN TO" is all over Tolkien's works. He refers to planes and turns a massive number of times in his works and his letters. 'Plain' is also a favourite go-to word of his- which derives from plane. He disguises his reference to his private system in that way.

"miracle", "indisputable power". NO. Etymology. c.f the Boatmen's Song example.

ok ok I'm going to give you a background and the sequence of events very broadly regarding the 'Loathly' prediction #71, beginning with the series of events leading to my understanding of HIS SYSTEM and then specifically the Loathly Prediction.

The Hands system: Ilúvatar's hands. His Secret Grammar.
The geometric model: 15 years and thousands of etymologies and how they relate to each other in his texts -with increasing input from his images too (5 yrs) once I realized they were also part of it. The hands of Ilúvatar sequence is the creation of the right angled triangle you see in 'Eeriness'. 3 hands = 3 planes of opposite, adjacent, hypotenuse. It's important because when characters raise their hands or arms that's the echo of the sequence of Ilúvatar's hand symbolism. Left = TIME-female-Sun (opposite) Edith-Goldberry. Right = SPACE-male-moon (adjacent) Tolkien-Bombadil. Both hands = command-domination of one side over the other (hypotenuse) = conflict and resolution. Wings are also the same symbolism. Sequence of 3 creates 3 planes of triangle. I can concatenate those list of things to both planes because Tolkien assigns EVERYTHING to those 3 planes. So that's the point when Ilúvatar creates the 'soul' of the marriage of Tolkien and Edith- two halves of one whole- hence "2 and 6" half crown of Bombadil-Goldberry, prediction #1. "My other half".
My homepage has LOTS of examples and explains the hands system- all grounded in the etymologies of the words in the text.

I had already determined his grammar of planar orientation and the TURN, and the importance of the cardinal compass directions. Cardinal from "cardo (genitive cardinis) "that on which something turns or depends; pole of the sky," originally "door hinge,".

I then sussed that it was actually a system of rational planes stacked on top of each other- like Minas Tirith in fact- which is his Purgatory from Dante. It's a medieval symbolic landscape just like Dante's Divine Comedy where the inner spiritual reality is manifested in the outer world. 7 deadly sins = 7 tiers of a city. I also figured out that the two trees were two spirals. And that they were also the Sun and Moon and their courses. Same thing. Passage up/down between the planes is via THE TURN through the DOOR guided by the STAR- see "cardinal" above. The turns left or right through the DOOR are the two spirals. A spiritual journey up through planes, just like Dante's Divine Comedy. The Two Trees and Sun and Moon are just incarnations in the World of the ideal form of the opposite and adjacent planes in the triangle created in the Music (and the Vision).

Then by accident I found Hennerson's article in mythlore from 30 years ago= 'Solid Geometry'- he had the basics of the duality (straight vs curved) and that's when I realized that the name he gave it was the correct name for Tolkien's system: a DIALECTIC. I'd already described it as a conversation on my site. I looked up the etymology of dialectic = Greek dialektos, conversation. Perfect. That's what Ilúvatar's hands sequence creates. And then I found Tolkien's source: the triangle in Plato's Republic as representing both a city and the soul and all other kinds of things, and I found the DIALECTIC too, and I also found the Spindle of Necessity. And guess what? The triangle and the Spindle looked remarkably like my models. The Spindle = pole with many circles turned right and left involving turns and upwards progression. You can see the resemblance here. And I also found this in The Republic which describes very well what I had written about his system of planes and doors: you ascend the rational planes through the Door, or descend to hell. "Then, my noble friend, geometry will draw the soul toward truth, and create the spirit of philosophy, and raise up that which is now unhappily allowed to fall down." In Tolkien's system you are drawn onward by the STAR and Faith. The star is at the right angle in the triangle. The right angle IS the Door. The star guides to the door. See the two hearts here. The two hearts are at the right angle = the DOOR. You go upwards to heaven, or downwards to hell.

And then I found Tolkien's statement about the Ananke in his letters...Ananke = Necessity.

Of course I do not mean that the Gospels tell what is only a fairy-story; but I do mean very strongly that they do tell a fairy-story: the greatest. Man the story-teller would have to be redeemed in a manner consonant with his nature: by a moving story. But since the author if it is the supreme Artist and the Author of Reality, this one was also made to Be, to be true on the Primary Plane. So that in the Primary Miracle (the Resurrection) and the lesser Christian miracles too though less, you have not only that sudden glimpse of the truth behind the apparent Anankê2 of our world, but a glimpse that is actually a ray of light through the very chinks of the universe about us. [Letter #79]

In other words God the supreme Artist created an ananke and 'fairy story'. And we can certainly infer the possibility that Tolkien emulated that. And he talks about planes too. BINGO.

And it's by using that whole model that I'm able to make the predictions. His system is a machine- a 'narrative machine' (he mentions the 'machinery' in the Resnik interview) which turns through geometric planes via orientation. Conflict:resolution. The courses of the Sun and Moon are the centre of it all- the template, the blueprint for the interactions in the narrative. The courses of the Sun and Moon are the 'Battle of the Sexes'- again the Loathly Lady theme. During the day the Sun dominates. At night the moon dominates. At twilight they are both in the sky together briefly in harmony and the DOOR opens. The DOOR is another subject -but related. But that's why the two hearts are at the right angle in Eeriness. They are the Sun and Moon of Edith and Tolkien at the Door in harmony. As incarnations of the Music the courses of the Sun and Moon can be regarded as 'the Music of the Spheres' and the geometry as his own personal 'Sacred Geometry' of his marriage. The courses of the Sun and Moon is this way convey increasing and decreasing states of harmony (accord) and discord. Etymology gives PIE root *kerd- "heart." Hence the two hearts. The TURN mechanism itself consists of 3 stages in the narratives, 3 turns of reorientation in fact: spirit->physical->language. That's why I predicted (#6) the appearance of the word spirit, or the subject of, in the first instance of the 3 of Denethor's 'The West Has Failed' after reading Shippey. "‘He is burning, already burning,’ he said sadly. ‘The house of his spirit crumbles.’"Correct. How I do that then? The TURN is 3 turns of re-orientation. The first one is the re-orientation of the spirit. A full analysis of Denethor's turn is in the Turn in Practice. I first found the TURN in the Akallabêth 15 years ago.


Regarding the table of predictions. Fair point. I created the table for more in-depth explanations than what is in the pdf but I was making too many predictions to keep with up with it all. (I'm getting better at it because my understanding is improving.) Just better I copy and paste what is in the pdf into the relevant slots in the table for now. So, thanks for the feedback on that.

Regards 1/ The unveiling. I've made 29 predictions surrounding that theme: the Loathly Lady. The central image in his drawings for that theme is 'Wickedness'. Remember the Loathly Lady is created by the man in his mind. That's the whole point of it. His Fear. That seed of fear and confusion begins in the Discords of Melkor. It's all Loathly Lady-Battle of the Sexes after that.
Two predictions that I made: #4 That Tolkien's word for Remmirath would refer to flies in some way in the etymology. Correct. (sithagong 'dragonfly'(sitha 'fly', Sithaloth or Sithaloctha ('fly-cluster'), the Pleiades).) Now the word Remmirath in no way whatsoever suggests flies does it?
The other prediction #24, that the 7 stars of the Valacirca would be referred to as (specifically) butterflies. Correct. How do the stars in Ursa Major resemble butterflies? There are no references in mythology anywhere to my knowledge. I was able to make the prediction because the butterflies are the DAGAZ RUNE- the BUTTERFLY RUNE-the DOOR.

I could predict that because the 7 stars are 7 female figures in his histories- they guide through the door. And at the Downfall of Númenor they are captured and appear then in the Remmirath (in the East where Shelob is). Like flies in a web, hence the prediction #4 regarding flies. The Remmirath, Borgil and Menelvegor are mentioned right at the outset of TLotR for that reason. This is the first unveiling of the 7. Dance of the 7 veils.

Away high in the East swung Remmirath, the Netted Stars, and slowly above the mists red Borgil rose, glowing like a jewel of fire. Then by some shift of airs all the mist was drawn away like a veil, and there leaned up, as he climbed over the rim of the world, the Swordsman of the Sky, Menelvagor with his shining belt.

Aragorn and Frodo have to free them from the webs ("netted stars", Old English net "open textile fabric tied or woven with a mesh for catching fish, birds, or wild animals alive; network; spider web,",) and restore them to the north. One of the stars is Arwen (Evening), she's the last of the 7, the other is Galadriel (Morning). In the CONSTELLATIONS you can see how the Bull (the Enemy) Borgil stands between Menelvagor and the Remmirath. Aragorn is symbolized by Menelvagor, the HUNTER. See all of my statements about the HUNT. Still more research to do but the 3 stars of Orion's belt are no doubt the Three Hunters of Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas. The Downfall was 'She That is fallen'- and their capture, the 7 female figures was part of that fall. When Ar-Pharazôn seized the sceptre from Tar-Miriel that was the last beat in the narrative of the downfall of the female in the Line of Kings. (Aldarion and Erendis explores that relationship conflict theme between male and female too). That's why Tolkien strangely uses the word 'webs' instead of tapestries in the fall of Miriel ("with all its children and its wives and its maidens and its ladies proud; and all its gardens and its balls and its towers, its tombs and its riches, and its jewels and its webs and its things painted and carven, and its lore: they vanished for ever."). It's a HINT.

The man creates the loathly lady in his mind (again the medieval symbolic landscape idea- inner reality manifests in the outer world). And She-lob is 'created' at the Downfall as the antithesis of She-that-must-be-obeyed = Galadriel. She-lob IS She That is Fallen ('She' being the Marian Galadriel). Hence the phial of Galadriel used against Shelob. That's why Shelob is referred to as Loathly because she is the inversion of the Lovely Lady (that Galadriel becomes after she has passed the test of the Ring). I knew that the theme of 'She That is Fallen' was the battle of the sexes (c.f Aldarion and Erendis for e.g) and that Shelob was an incarnation of the ruin of She That is Fallen but I didn't have a name for it- a source in literature. I just called it 'the Battle of the Sexes'. Then I found the motif of the Loathly Lady. Then I realized and made the 'loathly' prediction about Shelob. Aragorn (and Frodo) have to restore the stars (womankind) back to their rightful place in the north in the Valacirca. The whole Fellowship are involved of course but Aragorn is the principle actor. The butterflies in the Valacirca become flies trapped in webs in the Remmirath at the She That is Fallen. As I've already said She in 'She That is Fallen' is She-lob who is the inverted, antithesis of the Marian figure (the star of Númenor= Stella Maris, the Virgin Mary the Star of the Sea) symbolized by Galadriel (from Haggard's 'She'). Shelob is ruined and fallen. She-lob is 'She' as a spider. That's why Shelob, 'Her Ladyship' is referred to as Loathly because, as the Loathly Lady, she's an inversion of the Lovely Lady which Galadriel becomes after she has passed the test of the Ring. And the 7 stars narrative is why we see 'The Star of the North' of Aragorn- which restores the Stars back to the North- connecting the two narratives Akallabêth and TLotR via Silmarien.
So what's the big deal about the north and the east? That's the TURN= turn of 90 degrees which is a move between the two planes of orientation- more fundamentally it's a TURN between plane of opposite (left hand) and the adjacent (right hand) of the triangle: the DIALECTIC. That's his system- turning between the planes. They are turned (bent) from N to E at 'She That is Fallen' and then restored turned back again.
Another relevant prediction (#25): that there would be 7 of the strange symbols on the left hand curtain of 'Wickedness' because? They are 7 veils. Dance of the 7 veils. Correct. Then I found his source: Haggard's 'She'.There are 44 references to veils. And then there's the Galadriel connection to 'She' and the 'Aiesha Unveils' chapter. The mention of the Remmirath in LotR = unveiling no.1.

And I found this yesterday which made me smile. Regards what I just said about the Remmirath.

Greek Pleiades (singular Plēias), perhaps literally "constellation of the doves" from a shortened form of peleiades, plural of peleias "dove" (from PIE root *pel- "dark-colored, gray"). Or perhaps from plein "to sail," because the season of navigation begins with their heliacal rising.

If you look at sail you see: sail (n.) Old English segl "sail, veil, curtain," from Proto-Germanic *seglom

The same veil/ curtain in 'Wickedness' which has the 7 veils on it. Shelob's webs are grey of course. The stars as the females are doves of peace. And the helical rising = the restoration of the Sun and the up SPIRAL in the Spindle of Necessity. Helix is from Greek helix from PIE *wel-ik-, from root *wel- (3) "to turn, revolve," from PIE root *wel- (3) "to turn, revolve.". TO TURN.


Regards 2/ I am going to field that image to 20 people giving them the annotation that I gave you and I bet that most of them will see the woman. And I'm going to choose people who are not interested in Tolkien. People with no previous knowledge or bias.
Hidden images. As stated Tolkien worked his system out at a surprisingly young age -and stuck with it all his life. It was during the time towards the end of King Edward's and the creation of the Book of Ishness. The Book of Ishness refers to 'Book of Engl-ishness'- England = angle land, the land of angles. The Book of Angle-ishness'.That's why we see so many abstract drawings and the geometry in this one: Eeriness. We know he also studied A.S at King Edward's and Greek because his mods were on Greek. That's where he encountered Greek and A.S. As for the hidden images: it's a medieval symbolic landscape after the Arthurian Romances and after Dante's Divine Comedy. There's a serious purpose behind those hidden images. You can see his allusions to hidden geography, geometry, pattern, Arthur etc it in the N.C.P. Basically TLotR is Tolkien's Purgatorio.

Regards 3/ "You predicted 'loathly or loathsome'. You were right with the less common word, but you would still be claiming it as true had you found the more common one. The spiders in The Hobbit are 'loathsome'; this now looks less like a miraculous prediction, and more like an easy win that paid off with a bonus."

'Less common word'?. lol You mean 'previously unheard of extremely rare word from a previously unheard of motif'. See above for the related predictions as to why I was able to make the prediction. 29 of 'em all interrelated on that theme to date. Shelob was 'created' at the Downfall as the Whore of Babylon (the 'anti-Mary'), the ultimate eschatological manifestation of the Loathly Lady. There are no miracles mate- it's all etymology hidden under your nose.

Regards 4/ Actually I am taking Tolkien's timeline into account. If you read my homepage you'll see it all laid out. Most of what I intend to put on my homepage is there now- though some small parts are still a work in progress.

The geometry that the Balrog is part of -his system- was in effect since the end of King Edward's and the Book of Ishness. That predates The Fall of Gondolin by some years. The Hands of Ilúvatar are the left and right female and male in the triangle DIALECTIC. That's based on Plato's views on the soul as revealed in The Republic- which Tolkien would have been exposed to at King Edwards -I think we can guarantee he read that- it being one of the most influential books on philosophy in the world, and Edwards teaching Latin and Greek, Classics. The Balrog is the left hand. It's actually Edith. In that confrontation Gandalf is Tolkien. You don't have to care about that at all but it is.

All Balrog's are manifestations of the attempted domination by the left hand, (the Sun, the female) of the moon the male in the DIALECTIC. To command and silence them. In the male's eyes as per the Loathly Lady theme it's the female trying to be a male. That domination of the Sun is characterized as a threat by the male who has oppressed the female from the beginning. The fear, the confusion as to their mutual roles of man (Adam) and woman (Eve) are created by the Discords of Melkor. Loathly Lady theme. Melkor's attempt to drown out all other voices in the creation of the Music is manifested in the Loathly Lady theme- the dialectic, the conversation. The Balrog appears as the horrific woman. As does Shelob. Tolkien uses the same motif across both of those characters. Galadriel is in a state of grace and long suffering, she is a threatening, perilous figure, who might swing either way. When she is tempted by the Ring we see the Loathly Lady- the fears of the man in all its glory- the ultimate ruler with total sovereignty over all. But she refuses the Ring and she keeps her grace. She goes into the West- meaning she ORIENTS to the West. TURNS.
He uses the triangle planes (=hands of Ilúvatar- hence why so many hands and raised arms appear throughout his works. c.f Galadriel, wings likewise) and the interrelations between them via the mechanism of the TURN, over and over again. It's his 'narrative machinery' and it's like a symphony where a composer sets out his motifs in the beginning and then develops them: variety and unity (Shelob and the Balrog both Loathly Lady)- ..the MUSIC of the Ainur..the same symphony and secret grammar he alludes to in 'A Secret Vice' because Tolkien IS the little man and the great master who requires very little apparatus to create his system. That's why none of it's written down. He's hinting. A SECRET VICE. Vice etymology = both 'wickedness' and turn and screw (from PIE root *wei- "to turn, twist, bend").
The Loathly Lady motif in his works actually begins *in the World* with the placing of Illuin in the north and Ormal in the south. Their positions are reversed from the very beginning and so the Loathly Lady theme begins. Melkor runs and hides when the Sun first appears. We know Melkor does not like the sun- light- but in the Loathly Lady theme, symbolically that's the male fear of the (dominant) female. And that's the underlying reason why Melkor hates Varda above all. She creates the Valacirca, the 7 stars which manifest as 7 women. Loathly Lady theme again. They are ensnared by him in the Remmirath at the Downfall.

And what's more this understanding solves the conflict between who is Eldest: Bombadil or Treebeard. Neither are. It's the claim itself which is important. Battle of the Sexes = confusion, fear, domination. The female is eldest: Goldberry, the left hand- because it is raised by Ilúvatar and created first. We see that theme a lot. (That's another story from the Talmud Rabbinnic commentaries). You'll see that the whole TURN narrative of Denethor surrounds his confusion about who is the left and right hand between Boromir and Faramir. Again the theme of eldest comes into play.


I've tried my best to stick as tightly as I could to the points but I needed to give you all some background as to how I made the Loathly prediction: the context and the interrelated other predictions which are driven by Tolkien's SYSTEM. And how I came upon the system and how both the Balrog and Shelob can be the same thing. The SYSTEM explains why TOLKIEN IS PREDICTABLE. As I said, no miracles or special powers guys, just HIDDEN etymologies. My homepage really says most of it.

Thanks for taking the time to read and have a nice day.

p.s Hey...I just realized that there might be a fly in the ointment...I realized that I'd not identified Borgil very well. I checked it out on Tolkien Gateway and Prof. Kristine Larsen reckons it's Aldebaran. So I googled Aldebaran.

"Aldebaran is the brightest star in the constellation Taurus and is known as the "Eye of Taurus." The name "Aldebaran" is Arabic, which means "The Follower" because it appears to follow the Hyades star cluster that forms the head of the bull.."

Hahaha! That worked out rather well what with the Enemy being a big eye in Mordor. So my opinion is that it is in indeed Aldebaran....//edit...Aldebaran is actually on that CONSTELLATIONS image I posted!...not very observant me yaknow. Tut.

The Enemy, the Bull is symbolized by the crescent moon. The two points on the moon are known as the horns of the crescent. The bull has two horns. The constellation of Taurus in which we find Borgil also has two horns. You can see the reference to capturing the stars in the following images. The Sun here, the female is trying to hook them back out of the grasp of the crescent moon, the male. And here in his designs for the Hobbit dust jacket and you can see the DAGAZ rune which agrees with what I previously said: the stars are the butterflies, butterfly rune and guide through the door. The crescent moon is the devil in the man, the Moon, the right hand in the system but he blames his guilt on the woman. Loathly Lady.
As for the Enemy coming between the Man and the Woman in the relationship- ie, the discords, this understanding also explains why the bull here in the cliff face comes between these two figures here which lie on each side of the bull. And you can see the two crescent moons in the Two Trees on the West Gate Doors and hinted at by Tolkien here in the drawing.
The Sun, moon and stars imagery appears in the Hobbit, Silmarillion, early mythological explorations and the LotR because it is part of the Loathly Lady theme which I've already stated runs through the entire Histories beginning with the Discords and began at his late King Edward's and Book of Ishness period. You can see the stars escaping from the clutches of the Moon here at the point Smaug the Enemy is dead. Clearly the two horns of the Dragon are the horns of the Moon as well. Dragon = bull= Enemy = all same thing. The Woman is cast as the Enemy by the man- hence the Balrog and Smaug, yes Smaug is also the Loathly Lady. But it's a case of mistaken identity. It's Melkor fundamentally -the discords of Melkor in the Music influencing the will of the Man and Woman. It's symbolism. The crescent moon and the dragon were used on a cover for Roverandom (Hammond and Scull) but I can't verify if Tolkien approved that.

And the Sun and the crescent Moon on the sail of the ship of M-e supports the interpretation of the pleides as being from 'to sail' as noted above. It's a medieval symbolic landscape and the hidden images have a serious purpose.

This is why I could make the Loathly Prediction and the others and this is Tolkien's system. Take your time reading this folks. It took me 15 years.


monks